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encouraging hate and bad feelings ([info]feenix) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2004-06-02 23:14:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:a kid's book shouldn't be for kids, anime/manga, plebes

Because anime is too d33p for the American populace.
(Warning: It's on Gaia, so 56k'ers beware. However--holy shit--it's about fandom.)

The Anime/Manga/Comics forum is a cesspool of squealing over the newest hotness in anime. Most of the discussions that go on there are rehashes of topics done numerous times, and are more demonstrations of the posters' lack of any sentience whatsoever than actual topics.

So when I first saw this topic, I had high hopes. Which were quickly dashed when I decided to actually...you know...read it.

Basically, the first post opens with Kokoryta posting her opinion of the American intellect and whether it can handle anime. Her conclusion: Most of us can't appreciate the depth and subtlety in most anime, and American cartoons tend to pander to the lowest denominator.

Her proof? Comparing Escaflowne and CCS to...the Simpsons. Start nodding.

Also, she's Canadian. Keep that in mind.

Anyway, it quickly devolves into a small intellectual catfight between the comic book forum kids (note the CBM sigs) and the A/M/C kids over whether American comics have any depth. Though it's couched in intellectual terms, it's basically:

"American comics are for kids!"

"Nuh-uh, they're so mature!

"Are not!"

"Are so!"

(repeat ad infinitum)

Also, a little smudge of bukkake over whether "American" means "from the US" or "from North America." And then, American-bashing. And...oh hell, I've gone cross-eyed from the intellectuality, and I'm supposed to be one of the elitists there.

So, yeah. Be prepared for (omg!) heavy reading.

[edit]Oh baby, trolls!

Speaking of which...I never linked the other parts of the wank.

First, the wank about whether American comics are d33p and 3dgy. Starts at the bottom of page one, continues.

Next, In which Koko's Americanness is called into question. (I think this continues for like...two or three pages.)

More to be added as I finish backlogging.




Page 1 of 2
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(Post a new comment)


[info]dawnswalker
2004-06-03 06:46 am UTC (link)
While she does have some interesting points about some of the series being edited more for "Americafication" than for content, the entire argument kind of falls down the stairs headfirst when she tries to compare a sci-fi/fantasy adventure to a situation comedy.

And really, I love Cardcaptor Sakura, but it's miles away from anything that I think of when the word "complex" comes up. Sure, there are a lot of aspects to the story that you can read a lot into (in some cases, probably a lot more than CLAMP themselves actually intended), but you can do that with pretty much any work of fiction, including the oh-so-plebian Simpsons.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dawnswalker, 2004-06-03 07:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-06-03 07:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dawnswalker, 2004-06-03 09:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-06-03 05:53 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-06-03 06:53 am UTC (link)
anybody remember that little love triangle between Jason, Tommy, and Kimberly?

There was a threesome in Power Rangers? The hell?

Meh. I skimmed the first page and figured I'd seen just about everything there was to see. Comparing CCS to the Simpsons is about as stupid as one can get -- it's like comparing Barney to The OC.

The entire premise is just stupid, too, because there are exceptions for everything (Neil Gaiman's Sandman, I'd like to say, crosses all boundaries in its Gaiman-and-many-artists uber-glory, so nyah, Miss OP). Plus, about American audiences not having the attention span to sit through long anime series -- um, American fans manage it all the time, hence the American fanbase, so it's obviously not something in the water or our culture. Adult Swim is doing fairly well, isn't it? Eh? Eh?

And whose culture was it that produced three-and-a-half hour productions of Tolkien's work? Oh, shit, not really ours.

-- Azzie

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-03 08:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gaisce, 2004-06-03 08:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]j_crew_guy, 2004-06-03 08:39 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 09:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]j_crew_guy, 2004-06-03 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]palabradot, 2004-06-03 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]j_crew_guy, 2004-06-03 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-03 09:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-03 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]j_crew_guy, 2004-06-03 11:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]carbucketty, 2004-06-04 02:45 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-05 12:52 am UTC
Re: - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-05 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-05 01:11 am UTC
Like Jesus, in a way? - [info]birdyexmachina, 2004-06-03 10:04 am UTC
Re: Like Jesus, in a way? - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vadalia, 2004-06-03 10:15 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2004-06-03 03:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-06-03 05:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]littlest_lurker, 2004-06-03 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-03 08:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-06-03 05:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cairea, 2004-06-03 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-03 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaina, 2004-06-04 12:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaina, 2004-06-03 11:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-04 12:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaina, 2004-06-04 12:36 am UTC
Re: - [info]adinaj69, 2004-06-04 12:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaina, 2004-06-04 01:20 am UTC
Just a drive-by comment... - (Anonymous), 2004-06-04 12:44 am UTC
Re: Just a drive-by comment... - [info]jaina, 2004-06-04 01:23 am UTC
Re: Just a drive-by comment... - (Anonymous), 2004-06-04 01:34 am UTC
(no subject) - cicer, 2004-06-04 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mucktron, 2004-06-04 06:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2004-06-04 06:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]j_crew_guy, 2004-06-04 06:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2004-06-05 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coyotegirl, 2004-06-03 11:27 pm UTC

[info]arielchan
2004-06-03 07:04 am UTC (link)
"American comics are for kids!"

Are they talking new stuff or classics...?

Either way, my verdict is the same, really. Kids read comics cuz they think the heroes are cool and they love the badass super powers. But behind every comic is a story about loss, or anger, or descrimination that only adults can appreciate.

Not to mention those sexual undertones.

So the cool thing about comics is you don't really grow out of them. (Um. With the exception of Sandman, of course, which no kid could understand. Ever.)

Just my opinion, of course.

~*Ariel*~

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]iris, 2004-06-03 07:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-06-03 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaseroque, 2004-06-03 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]canisetlupus, 2004-06-03 11:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gaisce, 2004-06-04 12:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tooticki, 2004-06-03 09:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mucktron, 2004-06-04 06:09 am UTC

[info]iris
2004-06-03 07:19 am UTC (link)
The Simpsons is smarter than many viewers realize, though...it's satire at its best. Scathing. And there actually a lot of little nods to classical literature and whatnot that go over many people's heads.

We watched some of it in an honors English class, as part of a discussion on what makes satire effective. And there were some of us in there who practically knew the episodes by heart when we watched. And when I tried to watch it with an eye to the satire, and not just laughing at the jokes, I gained a new appreciation for it. It's really far more clever than people give it credit for.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2004-06-03 08:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-06-03 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]llama_treats, 2004-06-03 10:18 pm UTC

[info]criticalcricket
2004-06-03 07:40 am UTC (link)
*sighs* Anime is too complex for our tiny little American minds. That must be why people spend so much time watching it, buying it, researching the culture in order to understand it more and just expanding their minds period. All those fans are just like kids with glasses of wine, too young and immature to really appreciate it right?

Ok, some of them are, but aside from the squeeing fan kiddies, there are plenty of mature viewers who appreciate the complexity of the plots, myself being one of them.

Although, what does it say about my attention span that I didn't even make it past the first page of the wank? XD

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]feenix, 2004-06-03 07:55 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-06-03 07:56 am UTC (link)
That dreck actually made me really angry. And I'm not even American.

The Simpsons (NOT The Simpson's) is not an unintelligent program. There are a lot of underlying jokes and refernces that some *less intelligent* viewers who are only looking at the surface layer might not notice. Maybe this person shouldn't be condeming Americans.

Just Saying.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2004-06-03 07:52 pm UTC

meshou
2004-06-03 07:57 am UTC (link)
"Americans are too dumb to understand Lain?" WTF? I remember an interview with the creators mourning that Americans got Lain better than the Japanese (they said they wanted to spark debate, or something).

If you want real literary translation problems, read "The Stranger." It's SO much better in French. It's not worse because English speakers are stupid, it's worse because you always lose something in translation no matter what.

The pretentious burns.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 08:57 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 10:01 pm UTC

[info]elanor_durall
2004-06-03 08:02 am UTC (link)
Americans do not like to have to think to be entertained, they like their entertainment in the form of violence and sex.

as I was talking to my mom's ex, he was saying that Americans are only concerned with themselves and not about other cultures.


Wow. This is good material.

*splooooooge*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]skarrow, 2004-06-03 08:08 am UTC
I have a confession - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-03 08:14 am UTC
Re: I have a confession - [info]vasaris, 2004-06-03 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gorogoro, 2004-06-03 07:43 pm UTC

[info]gaisce
2004-06-03 08:30 am UTC (link)
I brought up Hellsing. The Hellsing organization, that fights the undead, is a Protestant organization. And who's their rival organization? The Vattican. Tell me that THAT is not fucking satire.

That's not fucking satire you twit! Unless the Vatican is prancing about and saying "Nobody expects the Integra Inquisition" it's not trying to parody or show sarcastic stereotypes of either group.

...god, I'm proving the OP right, aren't I?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - meshou, 2004-06-03 09:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vasaris, 2004-06-03 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aloysius, 2004-06-03 10:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skarrow, 2004-06-03 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-05 01:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaoscheebs, 2004-06-04 08:10 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-05 07:17 pm UTC

[info]redjackcash
2004-06-03 08:52 am UTC (link)

Because, I mean, appreciating your own culture is too much to ask.

Believe it or not, Americans produce many comics worth reading. And many cartoons worth seeing.

And many Japanese companies produce absolute crap-anime. Just because it's anime doesn't mean OMG IT'S AMAZING!111!1 I mean, it's mass-produced animation. Some of it is art, and some of it is smeg. It's just the way it goes.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2004-06-03 09:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-06-03 09:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hypno_jango, 2004-06-03 10:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ahiru, 2004-06-03 04:27 pm UTC
Re: - [info]hypno_jango, 2004-06-03 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2004-06-03 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]theamazingrando, 2004-06-03 03:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-04 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isntitironic, 2004-06-03 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 06:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blargbot, 2004-06-04 06:43 pm UTC
smeg - [info]deoridhe, 2004-06-03 09:47 pm UTC

[info]kijikun
2004-06-03 08:53 am UTC (link)
Stupidity and ignorance knows no nationality.

(Reply to this)


[info]blackjackrocket
2004-06-03 09:17 am UTC (link)
So who's this "Mod Flanders"?

And I can't be the only one who thought Tori and Julian's relationship and Madison's crush on Sakura were both BLINDINGLY obvious in the dub. When that was on, I didn't even know those relationships were *supposed* to be there, and I was all "Ooooh, this is some good stuff here..."

(of course, this was around the same time as Digimon 02, wasn't it? (Mmmm, Yukio/Hiroki...)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 09:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-03 09:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2004-06-03 09:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ari_, 2004-06-03 10:01 am UTC
I am so smart! S-M-R-T o/~ - [info]dawnswalker, 2004-06-03 11:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-03 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-06-03 11:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaseroque, 2004-06-03 02:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 02:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-03 11:28 pm UTC
/Wank - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-03 11:32 pm UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]gaisce, 2004-06-04 12:50 am UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-04 12:54 am UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-06-04 02:24 am UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-06-04 02:19 am UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]iczer6, 2004-06-04 02:22 am UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]diamonde, 2004-06-06 11:00 am UTC
Re: /Wank - [info]bishounenhuntrs, 2004-06-05 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielchan, 2004-06-03 06:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]julia, 2004-06-03 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]palabradot, 2004-06-04 05:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-06-04 10:20 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-04 12:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-06-04 10:21 am UTC

[info]aloysius
2004-06-03 10:34 am UTC (link)
If she insists on comparing America's most popular cartoon to an anime, I think she should have picked Sazae-san or Doraemon. Now those are some popular anime! They've been running for years and years and never seem to stop, and they get great ratings.

Funny enough, they consist of self-contained episodes like The Simpsons (only, Doraemon is two 15-minute episodes and Sazae-san numerous smaller episodes), and have very little of what she consideres to be "plot". The sad part is that they also lack the satire of The Simpsons, which would make me rate Simpsons higher than then at any given moment.

The chick knows nothing about "anime".

(Reply to this)


[info]ilpalazzo
2004-06-03 10:49 am UTC (link)
I near to dampened myself when one poster said she didn't get Adult Swim because she was Canadian. And nobody called her on it!

(Reply to this)


[info]bemysty
2004-06-03 01:59 pm UTC (link)
I personally liked the "America is Canada and even Europe!" bit. No, really. That's when I simply knew that I can relax and not to try to think to hard about this "theory". Ah, the pretentiousness! Tasty in the morning...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-06-03 08:33 pm UTC

[info]ladystarlight
2004-06-03 03:23 pm UTC (link)
On behalf of my countrypeople I have to say, we're usually much more polite than that. Really. Oh, we'll insult you, but then we'll immediately apologize for it and feel vaguely guilty for a while.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]theamazingrando, 2004-06-03 03:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-06-03 06:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oysteria, 2004-06-03 07:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theamazingrando, 2004-06-04 12:22 am UTC
Re: - [info]ladystarlight, 2004-06-04 02:32 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coyotegirl, 2004-06-03 11:31 pm UTC
Re: - [info]ladystarlight, 2004-06-04 02:33 am UTC
Re: - [info]coyotegirl, 2004-06-04 08:08 am UTC

[info]sagralisse
2004-06-03 04:03 pm UTC (link)
If you're going to compare an anime series to an American product, pick an equivalent sort of story. The audience for anime in Japan is older than the audience for cartoons here in the US. A anime series with multiple sub-plots sounds more like a television drama series or BtVS. *waves vaguely* Now I wish I watched more American television to be able to make some comparisons.

There's nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to our adult comedy animation: Simpsons, South Park, Family Guy, Futurama, etc. It'd be difficult to compare any of it to Japanese humor, since the references are specific to our culture and literature.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ragnarok, 2004-06-03 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadda, 2004-06-03 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-06-03 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]julia, 2004-06-03 09:29 pm UTC

[info]krazycat
2004-06-03 04:34 pm UTC (link)
This must've been added later by the original poster and it's a thing of beauty:
Before you continue to read the please take note that when I refer to Americans it not only includes people from the US, but people from Canada and even Europe as well.

So in fact, we really all are Americans now, eh?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mouseybrown, 2004-06-03 06:54 pm UTC

[info]ahiru
2004-06-03 04:40 pm UTC (link)
The OP already lost me when she used Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within as her first example. I saw that movie with my sister and frankly, we both found it to be fairly boring and predictable (I remember near the start of the movie I was thinking, "If she falls in love with the black guy instead of CGI Riley Finn this movie will get so many more points from me").

And then there's the whole Simpsons thing, which everyone else has mentioned. Gee, maybe the reason the stories are self-contained is because that's generally the way sitcoms work? (As for comparing anime with other American cartoons besides stuff like The Simpsons, you can't really compare Saturday morning cartoons to certain anime series because they're catering to different audiences; it's like if I was trying to prove that American TV is deeper than anime by comparing Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Pokemon.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]morgyne, 2004-06-03 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cairea, 2004-06-03 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2004-06-04 02:06 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-05 07:34 am UTC

[info]croik
2004-06-03 05:13 pm UTC (link)
I only managed to read as far as her butchering the names of everyone in Escaflowne. Especially when she implied Allen's father is six years old. The hell??

If she wanted to compare Simpsons to something, she should have picked Crayon Shin-chan. I can't speak for its satire qualities, but it is a punk kid causing trouble XD

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chaos_seahorse, 2004-06-04 08:54 pm UTC
Re: - [info]croik, 2004-06-04 09:11 pm UTC

[info]palabradot
2004-06-03 07:13 pm UTC (link)
Bobo-Bobobo or whatever the hell it's called.

Melted. My. Brain.

And I *loved* Excel Saga. Currently reading the manga.

Oh, but I'm also reading FAKE, my first shonen-ai/yaoi...am I supposed to be culturally superior now or something?

-holding her pinky out just *so* pb

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]gorogoro, 2004-06-03 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]palabradot, 2004-06-04 04:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cairea, 2004-06-03 08:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cairea, 2004-06-03 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-06-03 09:55 pm UTC

[info]sarajayechan
2004-06-03 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Oh, boy. Another America vs Japan bitchfight. Will it never end? :P

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2004-06-03 09:07 pm UTC (link)
I do have to admit, "Cardcaptors" sucked gravel through a crazy-straw.

However, someone who misspells Millerna, Donkirk, and Maude Flanders (really, now -- how hard is "Maude" to spell?), thinks Chid is Allen's father (that one made me spoo on the monitor), and refers to the "lost culture of Atlantic," is really in no position to be lecturing anyone.

I really, really hate the attitude that everything Japanese is OMGsoonederfull!!!! and everything American is juvenile and lame. Give me a break. Every culture produces both simple things and complex things; every culture produces both trash and works of beauty.

Oh, and FF:SW? Didn't suck because it had too much plot. It sucked because the plot was uninteresting and the characters undeveloped. So neenur.

GhilleDhu

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2004-06-03 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ahiru, 2004-06-03 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-06-03 10:28 pm UTC

[info]sajasma
2004-06-03 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Before you continue to read the please take note that when I refer to Americans it not only includes people from the US, but people from Canada and even Europe as well.

So Europeans can be referred to as Americans...

Well. Alright.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]julia, 2004-06-03 09:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sajasma, 2004-06-03 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-06-03 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]julia, 2004-06-04 12:03 am UTC
possibly OT
(Anonymous)
2004-06-03 11:20 pm UTC (link)
"Thats not exactly true, alot of anime today is made with Universal Appeal in mind. Why do you think the Wolf's Rain soundtrack has the majority of its songs in English and French? Because Anime is extremely popular in America and France."

Yes, just for our listening pleasure. That is so true. It can't POSSIBLY have anything to do with Yoko Kanno and her colleagues happening to enjoy writing songs in foreign languages.

(Reply to this)



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