BDSM + RPS + RPG = wank
So there's this RPS RPG on GreatestJournal called Valimar. All you need to know about it is that it's an AU where people get sold into slavery if they don't toe the line. It's a self-confessed angst machine: the evil masters torment the slaves so that the slaves can angst.

Today one mun posted two (guaranteed to cause wank) rants on their OOC community.

Rant #1: the mun is troubled by non-players reading the RPG.

"I know we cannot close off the main community to outside eyes, but I really find myself wishing we could. It makes me uncomfortable to know there is someone out there seeing my characters in flashes through the eyes of other characters. I cannot hope to please these people, and the writer in me finds that...discomfiting."

Lots of muns reply, most agreeing.

"I think the problem with the "watchers" is they don't have access to the OOC discussion and planning and plotting that the muns might have, which could explain very well why a particular pup is behaving a particular way."

Another mun says, "They see the outside, the finished product. They don't see the work we put into our plotlines."

Bwah? Maybe it's just me, but if you have to have behind-the-scenes info to understand a character, whether it be in an RPG or in fic, you're doing something wrong.

But it doesn't start getting really wanky until one of the aforementioned readers weighs in with their opinion.

Uh oh! She has the gall to say that she only started reading the game for the Sean Bean character and that she finds one of the other pups that Sean interacted with "creepy".

She's told that saying she doesn't like a character is "insulting people's hard work, effort, blood sweat and tears".

Then the OP responds saying that to read just for Sean Bean is being stalkery and throws the word creepy right back at her.

Yet another mun steps in and says:

"I think that to a degree it's true but a good many of us don't so much as follow the careers of hte people we play. We don't fangirl the actual people. We don't hold any sort of relationship at all between the character and the actor/musician.

I'm with Stuart's mun. We all have squicks and mine is people fangirling the actual people behind the characters they play. It comes off as some wierd fantasy for me and squicks the shit out of me."

Oookay. Thankfully someone asks her to clarify, but the answer doesn't seem to have much to do with the question:

"There's a quality I see rarely, but when I do see it it makes me squick like nothing.

It's not about reading or fangirling the RPGing or the quality or even the actors. It's...

When you are left with the impression the gaming exists soley as a way to fulfill and act out personal fantasy. When a fan of your pup in the real world is DESPERATE to play with them and you can just envision the other player masturbating as you write."

Well. I guess that clears that up. Or not.

Oh, and I almost missed the bit where the OP states that the character called creepy has been removed from gameplay because the mun can't bear the thought of someone not liking her pup. OH NOES!

Rant #2: shipping is evil.

She gives a long list of the evils of shipping, which assumes that just because you ship a pair of characters, you won't write with anyone else. She gives examples of "good relationships" in Valimar but says those aren't the same as ships, because the characters interact with others.

A couple people disagree, and it comes out that shipping doesn't just mean, well, shipping, it means "putting your characters in a bubble where they interact with no one else."

The mod does step in and try to put things in less wank-magnet terms and the whole thread doesn't get nearly as wanky as the first rant, alas.

There are a few gems, though, such as when someone asks what's to stop the characters in a ship from interacting with others, even in non-sexual situations if they're monogamous?

The OP comes back with: "The only answer I have for this is that in all the games I've been in and heard of, I have never seen this happen."

And like a good little wanka, I have saved the pages in case the mods lock down or delete the threads.

http://www.megchan.com/scans/rant1.html
http://www.megchan.com/scans/rant1-1.html
http://www.megchan.com/scans/rant1-2.html
http://www.megchan.com/scans/rant1-2-1.html
http://www.megchan.com/scans/rant1-2-2.html
http://www.megchan.com/scans/rant2.html

ETA: Ooh, a helpful mouse posted some more links, one of which led me to this gem:

"You're not a crazy stalker for getting the OOC on Fandom Wank. You're a crazy stalker for literally dissecting every post those two muns do. If I was Sean or Nick mun...I'd find your "reviews" extremely creepy and stalkerish."

So let's review (ha!) shall we?

Reading fic/RPGs about a character/celeb you like = stalker

Liking a celeb = stalker

Giving detailed reviews and concrit for authors you like = stalker

Riiiiight.

(Post a new comment)

	Lot of effort, little wank redpanda 2004-07-16 12:45 pm UTC (link)
	scratches head Huh. I thought it was all rather polite, really. You don't know RPS or RPGs very well if you think THIS was wanky, my dear. Hoo boy. The shitstorms I've seen...! starry-eyed with nostalgia PS: The OP is a he. :) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-16 12:51 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, most of it was pretty calm, but there was a lot of wtf-ness going on. It was the "OMG you like to read fic about Sean Bean, you're a stalker!" bit that pushed it into post-worthy territory for me. (Also the whole "don't criticise me, you meanie!" is a pet peeve of mine.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Lot of effort, little wank (Anonymous) 2004-07-16 01:53 pm UTC (link)
	Yeaaah. Wasn't really aware disagreement and discussion was something that meant it was wank. You know, they disagreed, no one was name calling. Was just... talk about issues cropping up in the game. Some of that behind the scenes stuff. Really, you need to look at some HP boards to see WANK. This? This is nothing. And... pet peeves do not a wank make. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Lot of effort, little wank

anatsuno
2004-07-16 02:09 pm UTC (link)

disagreement and discussion do not a wank make. wanky opinions or opinions that are expressed wankily can a wank make-- the FWOP might be wrong in s/h/it's assessment of that, since it's, as always, down to subjective stuff. kyuuketsukirui found some of it wanky in its own right, apparently.

i tend to agree, although 1)i'm happy to see that reader-writer RPG divide discussed cause it's an interesting topic *feels posts broiling inside* and 2)i'm not done reading it all. O.o there certainly is a lot of talk.

sorry, this quote, even if it feels a leeettle different in context: "I think the problem with the "watchers" is they don't have access to the OOC discussion and planning and plotting that the muns might have, which could explain very well why a particular pup is behaving a particular way." is wanky on its own, imo.

yeah, making your writing public and after that complaining that omg readers don't *see* the strings of the puppet waxed all shiny with your own blood and tears and dare make judgment god oh god? ... bzuh.

you're free to disagree, obviously. and if FW on the whole or the majority of commenters or whatnot feels like you, everybody will call non-wank and move on (and at least, hopefully, it won't end up being the third deleted post in as many days...). it wouldn't be the first time. *shrugs*

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Re: Lot of effort, little wank
(Anonymous)
2004-07-16 02:18 pm UTC (link)

Agreed there were definately some wanky MOMENTS though they were brief.

I think in context though even that comment made SOME sense, and no I have nothing to do with any of it. I think the context that gives that some validity, if ther'es any, is simply that they're talking about judgment calls being made by someone who pulls random logs of a character's to read.

Which means that you can't see one, or two, or even three events that are widely spread apart, not read the stuff in the middle and not have it make sense.

has nothing to do with OOC discussion. That's just peculiar.

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	Re: Lot of effort, little wank llama_treats 2004-07-16 03:04 pm UTC (link)
	See? All you had to do was wait. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Lot of effort, little wank telesilla 2004-07-16 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	Sadly, not every wank posted here wank has heds pastede on yay. Nor can all Kinky RPG wanks live up to the Est wank of yore. But yeah I'd say this had it's wanky moments. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

God yes

iczer6
2004-07-17 02:16 am UTC (link)

Sadly, not every wank posted here wank has heds pastede on yay.

Thank you for saying that.

I mean they can't all be gems folks, not every post is gonna end up having 30 pages and ten thousand comments, if you don't feel the wank is 'for you' then move along to the next post.

I mean it's one thing if you feel that a post is being wanked undeservedly, it's another entirely if you don't think there's 'enough' wank, or you think the wank it boring.

I mean it's kinda wanky to complain about how a wank doesn't fit your standards.

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	kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-17 02:27 am UTC (link)
	Eh, I've done the complaining bit myself sometimes, but when it's coming from anonymice from the wank itself, I can't take it too seriously. :p It's more amusing than anything. "No, we're not being wanky! Really! You must have a grudge against us! MEANIE!!!!" (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Lot of investment, little toughness mendoit 2004-07-16 05:36 pm UTC (link)
	I love it when people involved in the wank or who have a personal investment in the wank come to F_W and immediately try to ward off anyone reading the wank by saying it really isn't wank after all. :D (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	*yawns* (Anonymous) 2004-07-16 07:00 pm UTC (link)
	points to the OP If you ask me, someone knows a wee bit too much about it to not be an embittered member or a lurker herself. OMG THE BACKBITING IZ PASTE-- eh you know the rest. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mendoit 2004-07-16 07:03 pm UTC (link)
	Wow, and we follow up the "this isn't wank because it's boring" with "this isn't wank because you're backbiting"! :D Which FW cliche do we get next? baits breath with curiosity PS: Do you need a code? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(nibbles curiously at the bait) (Anonymous) 2004-07-16 07:18 pm UTC (link)
	Oh I wasn't saying whether it was wank or not, I just find that fact funny. I wonder who pissed her off enough to make her go to all this effort. :) And no but thank you! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mendoit 2004-07-16 07:23 pm UTC (link)
	squee Third cliche! "Someone must have pissed the OP off really bad to make her go to all this effort!" pats your head That's so cute. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2004-07-16 09:16 pm UTC (link)
	Okay! There's your next cliche, sweetie. Right after your own "you're so cute head pat" :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mendoit 2004-07-16 09:31 pm UTC (link)
	grins But you are! I've got my very own clingy anon -- I've never had one of those before. I'm so flattered! So, are you having fun refreshing the page looking for my responses to your anon posts? :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

funkyhelix
2004-07-16 07:23 pm UTC (link)

Why do you think someone pissed her off? F_W comes across people acting wanky or wanky-ish, and they link it up so we can point and laugh. You're assuming it's a grudge, which makes me curious. Do you know something we don't? Feel free to spill.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	no, not a clue really (Anonymous) 2004-07-16 09:18 pm UTC (link)
	It just seemed terrifically -detailed- to me. Usually RPG griping is boring Greek to anyone not actually playing them. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-16 11:36 pm UTC (link)
	A wee bit too much? Dude, all the info I posted came from those two threads. It's not a lot of work and it's not a lot of info. Maybe you're just slow. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	telesilla 2004-07-16 02:24 pm UTC (link)
	"The only answer I have for this is that in all the games I've been in and heard of, I have never seen this happen." Doesn't get out much, I'm thinking. (Reply to this)

	dwarfjen 2004-07-16 02:26 pm UTC (link)
	You know, there is so much more (and better) wank within the valimarooc archives. This was fairly weak. I give it 4/10. (play in the game, love the game, sometimes want to scream STOP TAKING YOUR PORN SO SERIOUSLY at the OOC comm.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-16 02:48 pm UTC (link)
	LOL, I've looked at the comm and have no desire to slog through to find anything, tempting as the promise of wank is. That has got to be the most fangirling of other players I've ever seen for a game and they're all separate posts. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	dwarfjen 2004-07-16 02:51 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but nine times out of ten if a serious discussion starts up it turns into wank. Maybe we should just stick to the fangirling. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	oxydosic 2004-07-16 03:24 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know, i found the fact that people were declaring that being a fan of an actor was squicky but they seemed to think putting said same actors into RPS situations was ok pretty wanky. And shipping means you can only have those two people interact with each other and no one else? Dude, i've tried that before and it's freaking boring. (Reply to this)(Thread)

cesare
2004-07-16 08:27 pm UTC (link)

I don't know, i found the fact that people were declaring that being a fan of an actor was squicky but they seemed to think putting said same actors into RPS situations was ok pretty wanky.

Yeah, agreed. Why use actors at all if the idea of fantasizing about actors turns you off? Why not use models if all you want is a face for your RP characters' icons?

For that matter, why write explicit porn if the idea of the other RPers being turned on makes you uncomfortable?

Maybe it's time to start that RPG about a bunch of models where the Masters command the slaves to bake cookies all day. It could still be really dramatic even without sex-- if the slaves drop any cookie dough, they have to get on their hands and knees and eat it right off the floor! The angst! The pane!

And shipping means you can only have those two people interact with each other and no one else? Dude, i've tried that before and it's freaking boring.

Heh. *pets isolated paired-up RP pup* It happens-- you get comfortable writing with someone and come up with tons of ideas, and between that and a perennial shortage of time, you wind up collaborating with one person all the time. And by 'you', I mean me. But I know I'm not the only one.

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	elijah 2004-07-17 03:48 am UTC (link)
	You're not, there's at least two of us! meep (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

jennandanica
2004-07-17 08:47 am UTC (link)

Three here. And four if you count Alex. We maybe manage to get out a bit more but not too much. And tomorrow will be a year since we've been writing our pups together. Not bored yet.

Personally (and huge emphasis on that word), I would not want to be forced to write with others. I like writing with people I'm comfortable with and whose writing styles mesh with my own and I enjoy writing outside my general circle when time and storylines permit. *shrugs*

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	smo 2004-07-16 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	OMG YOUR ICON. dead (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-16 11:40 pm UTC (link)
	Isn't it beautimous? The quote is something Jeff said to Rann one time. <3 (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-07-16 11:42 pm UTC (link)
	Rann the poster, or some other Rann? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-16 11:50 pm UTC (link)
	That Rann. There was some bitchfight on Jeff's journal a while ago. That was the best quote evah. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2004-07-16 11:57 pm UTC (link)
	Good to know. (Reply to this)(Parent)

mendoit
2004-07-16 05:33 pm UTC (link)

o_O

Wow, I can't remember the last time I saw so many incredibly defensive people in one place. "OMG YOU'RE READING MY STUFF!" Why post it if you don't want people reading it, and have these people never gotten a piece of negative feedback in their lives? Honestly, that sort of thing is why I rarely feedback anybody and even more rarely offer any criticism -- because while people might say "I'm a feedback whore", what they mean is "tell me how great I am and don't dare to tell me anything negative."

Oy. And the Est may have its wankery (*pets the Est wankery*), but at least we don't demonize our readers for saying they don't like our characters or that our characters are coming off in a way we didn't intend.

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(Anonymous)
2004-07-16 05:41 pm UTC (link)

They got some negative stuff (http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/anonymice/710.html) Alas the other one a week or so back that nearly drowned in wank seems to have disappeared.

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(Anonymous)
2004-07-16 08:02 pm UTC (link)

Why post it if you don't want people reading it

Oddly enough, it's not about you (the reader).

I don't know how you RP, but I RP for myself and for the other muns involved in the game.

I don't think RP is anything like fanfic. I don't write it looking for feedback; I write it for the element of interacting with other pups that allows for character exploration and growth. With fanfic the writer controls every element of the story; in RP you only control what your pup does; the other half of the interaction is controlled by someone who very likely have completely different ideas about what should happen. It's spontaneous, and often unexpected.

That's what it's about for me. Your mileage may vary, of course.

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mendoit
2004-07-16 08:11 pm UTC (link)

Oh, fair enough. And I RP, too -- but I've also got tons of RP-style fic I've written that I would really just as soon not have any commentary on.

Guess where it lives?

On my hard drive. Or in a few isolated cases, in heavily filtered flocked posts.

If you're going to post something publicly and all but advertise it, then having people read it is par for the course. If people in the game weren't at all interested in having an audience, they could lock all the posts down.

Really, I wasn't asking why RP if you don't want people reading it. I get that. I was asking why post, why post publicly, if you're freaked out that people read your writing. There's no earthly reason for that.

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(Anonymous)
2004-07-16 08:53 pm UTC (link)

Really, I wasn't asking why RP if you don't want people reading it. I get that. I was asking why post, why post publicly, if you're freaked out that people read your writing. There's no earthly reason for that.

Oh; sorry, I misunderstood.

The simple answer is, I'm not a mod. Frankly I'd prefer having the community locked to just the members, but I understand that this would effectively prevent new members from coming in and making the game even more interesting and diverse. It would kill growth by limiting the game to the existing muns. I get that. The game is probably better because it is public. Hell, I read the game before I joined, and I'm probably not the only one.

Having said that, I love the game and I have a great deal of fun RPing with the muns who play there. That's what keeps me there.

I dunno; I kind of look at the whole situation as if the game is like...playing football at the park. It's public, sure, but you're there to play, not entertain anyone. You don't really expect random strangers to walk up and start critiquing the way you pass the ball.

That's a really bad analogy, but it's the best I can come up with.

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	lulinda 2004-07-17 02:32 am UTC (link)
	How could you not expect it with a public game? Not liking it is one thing, but not expecting it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2004-07-17 02:48 am UTC (link)

*shrug*

I don't follow any games I'm not a part of. I'm still sort of adjusting to the idea that some people do.

I have to go back to the football game analogy. Do you expect to be watched (or critiqued) when you play a pickup game at the park? I don't. Other people may be there, but they're busy doing their own things. I don't assume anyone is interested in what I'm doing besides me and the people I'm playing with.

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	lulinda 2004-07-17 03:00 am UTC (link)
	But how many people would watch some pickup game compared with how many people might like to read something like what is being produced in the Valimar game? I post some form of fiction in a public place, I'm going to expect that it might get read by people that might be interested in it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	telesilla 2004-07-17 04:13 am UTC (link)
	Me, I'm an inveterate people watcher so I watch both pickup games and read RPGs I don't play in. Man if I didn't I'd have missed out on HW!Orli!!!!!! WOE! loffs Lu for HW!Orli OMG! (Reply to this)(Parent)

franzi1981
2004-07-17 12:13 am UTC (link)

I was asking why post, why post publicly, if you're freaked out that people read your writing. There's no earthly reason for that.

Well, the big disadvantage for any RPG that would go 'underground' with locked posts to a locked community obviously is... how would you get new members? I joined because I found the setting to be interesting and challenging. And the posts well-written. I never would've joined if I couldn't see what was going on, what I would be getting into.

Then again, I also don't care who reads. If they like it? Fine. If they don't? Fine as well. We're having fun, and that's all that counts.

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	(Anonymous) 2004-07-17 02:14 am UTC (link)
	Just (http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/stillsharpe/4383.html) adding (http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/gamergrrl/6799.html) to the reading (http://www.greatestjournal.com/community/valimarooc/331689.html). (Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2004-07-17 07:59 am UTC (link)

We all have squicks and mine is people fangirling the actual people behind the characters they play. It comes off as some wierd fantasy for me and squicks the shit out of me.

Then why play a fucking actor in the first place? Create your own goddamned characters, if you're so worried about your game becoming nothing more than a masturbatory fantasy based on the people you're playing.

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	lannamichaels 2004-07-19 02:58 am UTC (link)
	way I understand it, that mun is playing a Japanese singer, not an actor. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2004-07-19 04:52 pm UTC (link)

I so need to get a JF account but--

Yes. A Japanese Singer who bears no resemblance to the real guy except passing physical appearance because I know little to nothing about his life and I came into RPS with a friend and well... Yes, everyone knows the actual Gackt and my Gackt just don't cross paths. I've never claimed to. The history is REMOTELY similiar, but only vaguely and that's been told to the mods and other players every turn so I don't run into that issue. Not a huge one admittedly but it DOES Keep down and prevent MY own personal issues.

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	tocomfortyou 2004-07-19 07:07 am UTC (link)
	I have nothing constructive to say, only that your icon is a source of wonderment and joy. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Thanks! kyuuketsukirui 2004-07-19 07:11 am UTC (link)
	All credit for the quote goes to backfromspace. :D (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2004-07-19 08:20 am UTC (link)
	Ar! (http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/stillsharpe/4819.html) Game mod makes own players walk the plank.</p> (Reply to this)