littleshebear
2003-05-18 06:12 pm UTC (link)

::waves:: Long time reader, first time poster.

But they're women and they're snogging...look. It an interesting interpretation of that episode. I seem to remember that the obstacle to them getting together was the taboo against rejoining, the fact that they were both women wasn't even an issue. Actually, I thought the whole episode was a thinly veiled allegory about homophobia itself but there we go. I've obviously been brainwashed by the Star Trek PR machine...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	serpentis 2003-05-18 07:35 pm UTC (link)
	What is in the shiny thing is blissfully unaware of LotRness looks well dodgy, what with all the talk of wank and everything... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: littleshebear 2003-05-18 07:37 pm UTC (link)
	Well, if you have a filthy mind it is yes...It is our most beloved wank. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: serpentis 2003-05-18 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	The Essence of the One True Wank? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: littleshebear 2003-05-18 07:51 pm UTC (link)
	It's the One Wank to Rule them all. We've strayed horribly off topic here. We must hi ourselves to Paramount studios my dear. Not enough people there have the Gay. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: serpentis 2003-05-18 07:57 pm UTC (link)
	I have the Fairy Dust. I have Monty and Marwood. I think the queer uncle will be enough to shatter down their Eval Homophobia - their resistance is futile. Sorry, had to get that in somewhere into the thread, didn't I? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: littleshebear 2003-05-18 07:59 pm UTC (link)
	giggles We are the Gay. You will be assimilated. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	gairid 2003-05-19 04:22 am UTC (link)
	"It's the One Wank to Rule them all." Oh my GOD, that's fucking BRILLIANT! :::worships::: (Reply to this)(Parent)

lasultrix
2003-05-18 07:55 pm UTC (link)

This person does seem to be taking, um, every juncture in Star Trek when there could have been a queer person and wasn't personally, but I do agree that the lesbian kiss wasn't a real lesbian kiss. It was "We were heterosexually married in a previous life and in a moment's weakness we'll give in to our nostalgia for that marriage". At no point in the episode was it even mentioned that the pairing was lesbian, and Jadzia's never shown any signs of being non-heterosexual otherwise. I did find that episode a bit of a copout.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

oxydosic
2003-05-18 08:21 pm UTC (link)

Well, the thing about Dax is, i always kind of got vibes that she was bisexual...there were a couple times where she was very 'friendly' towards other females and it seemed a very natural state of being for her. I also always thought Garak was at least bi..actually i used to think he was gay until he developed those feelings for Ziyal, a female.

What bugs me about this guy is every time there's something that hints at bisexuality/homosexuality in a ST epiosde, he shoots it down as not qualifying for his definition of bi/gay.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	madmouth 2003-05-23 10:28 pm UTC (link)
	I agree. plus, it was a rather uncomfortable occurence on the part of the actresses. it resembled a clark/lana sort of kiss. (Reply to this)(Parent)

nolifeking
2003-05-18 08:25 pm UTC (link)

You don't find having the one (1) sole single main character gay kiss explained as the lingering memories of a heterosexual relationship the leeetlest bit wanky in itself? Quite apart from that, in the context it's quite clear that he uses "lesbian kiss" to mean "kiss between two lesbians", meaning the presence of two gay or bi women, the lack of gay people on Star Trek being the point of the site.

Worked up as ST guy may be, he doesn't have to reach that far to find his "out there" arguments. The ST creators' avoidance and backpeddaling on the topic of gay characters aren't exactly manufactured by him. If I wasn't for finding the ST:TNG successors so horribly uninteresting, I might even have felt a bit disappointed myself.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

oxydosic
2003-05-18 08:41 pm UTC (link)

As i said above, my problem with them is not that they want a gay character on Star Trek. I can understand that. It's that any gay/bisexual moment that has happened on the shows is dismissed by him and written off for various reasons. I'm not sure what this guy wants, and i can't help feeling like even if there was a gay character on Star Trek, he wouldn't be satisfied, there'd still be something wrong, and he'd just switch avenues and complain about that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

nolifeking
2003-05-18 09:33 pm UTC (link)

Oh, I don't know, I rather think complaining can be warranted in cases like these (though I do think this guy is overreacting, a bit). I'm personally not thrilled of seeing if-you-squint-and-wish-hard-they-might-be-gay characters and strangelly gendered alien societies that get no major parts. If you have any attempts at diversity floating in a big sea of Normal People™ it feels a bit off - and honestly, in case of ST us non-het people haven't even risen to the level of tokenism yet.

Speaking of which, I can be the curmudgeonly ST watcher and rip apart a gay character in advance ;> I'd loathe anyone who didn't have an personality besides being gay, who'd show up only in situations relating to tolerance (or possibly space-AIDS). Or if not... ooh, what about the nice gay guy without a sexlife, or the lesbian woman with a tragic life and a dead lover, or- but cliches are alway bad, right?

Seriously, I don't know him, but know what I would want: People to write all kinds of characters, giving them all kinds of traits and not making a show of it. "Here's the universe's single gay person, now shut up" would not be enough, then, for me. Something might be better than nothing, but if it's still not well off, why should you be content?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	nolifeking 2003-05-18 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	Em... what can I say, English is not my first language. Why I always catch the strange errors after I post the journal comments... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	iczer6 2003-05-18 10:37 pm UTC (link)
	>>The ST creators' avoidance and backpeddaling on the topic of gay characters aren't exactly manufactured by him. If I wasn't for finding the ST:TNG successors so horribly uninteresting, I might even have felt a bit disappointed myself.>> I agree. I do think the guy's taking this a litte TOO personally, but I have to admit he does have a point. Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)

misswindy
2003-05-19 04:15 am UTC (link)

I couldn't have said it better myself. *Anyone* who has ever mentioned in the Trek fandom that maybe, just maybe, in the 40 year history of the franchise they could have possibly had one, single solitary gay character on the series or movies has met with tons and tons of fanboy homophobia, including the frequent argument that perhaps in the future there are no more gay people because science has found a way to cure it. Yecch.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-05-19 07:24 am UTC (link)
	>>including the frequent argument that perhaps in the future there are no more gay people because science has found a way to cure it. Yecch.>> Okay please tell me that's some kind of sick joke. Please? Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2006-09-17 07:34 pm UTC (link)

*snicker* Which makes me think of this:

George Bush is attending a world conference at the UN. His good mate, the Saudi Prince comes up to him and they have the following conversation

Saudi: 'George my son is so stuck on Star Trek, but one thing really disturbs both him and I about the eposides"

George: "What's that Prince?"

Saudi Prince: "Well when I watch the show, I see Americans, Japanese, Chinese, Australians, Africans - but, but, I NEVER see any Muslims, and George - it really annoys me!"

George: "Well of course you don't see any Muslims, it's the future!"

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2007-05-14 06:50 pm UTC (link)

*cough*Dr.Julian Bashir*cough* Of course, I think, him like other humans, are all agnostic. The Bajoran Phophets doesn't count as a /faith/, because they actually exist (right there).

I like to think that Julian Bashir is the bisexual male of the series too, but all his attraction to male characters is SUBTEXT, and the moment his subtext with Garak got too threatening, they've dropped it, paired Julian off in a relationship with Leeta, and then pushed Garak off to Ziyal, Ziyal whose other characteristics are not shoved to the side as she exist only as a piece in the fight between Garak and Dukat. The harm of homophobia spreading to women...

- ZombieBorg

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Star Trek as American Propaganda
(Anonymous)
2007-05-14 06:52 pm UTC (link)

What's interesting is, there has been Japanese characters from the beginning, but no CHINESE characters, this make sense because Japan is America's satellite in the East; even as Japanese citizens grow wary then more apathetic that their Prime Ministers always report to the American president shortly after he is elected.

The Chinese are probably the Cardassians...the cultured, the casually cruel...oh well, at least we weren't the one note aliens!

- ZombieBorg

(Reply to this)(Parent)

mpoetess
2003-05-18 10:46 pm UTC (link)

I'm sort of about 3/4 for this guy. I think he is over the top, but I have to agree that it seems the producers have been pretty wanky on the issue themselves.

I do think he undercuts his own arguments when he says that the Jadzia kiss wasn't a "real" lesbian kiss, but the Kirk/Uhura kiss was a real interracial kiss. If (as he acknowledges) the storyline wasn't specifically about how interracial kissing is okay, and in fact they were being forced to do so -- but the power of the image (and the fact that none of the characters said afterwards "Eww, they made him/her/me kiss a white/black person") was stronger than the plotty reasons for its existence, then how can that not apply to the DS9 woman/woman kiss? Yes, its reasons for existence were based in a plot about their past het relationship, but it still showed a strong, passionate f/f kiss, between consenting adults who truly cared about each other, on (more or less) primetime Trek. And again, the reason there wasn't any further development of the relationship was related to the issue of Trill not rejoining with past mates, in their culture -- not about their gender. Just as the (ostensible) reason for Kirk/Uhura not going anywhere was because they didn't have a relationship to begin with, and were simply forced into the action -- not because they were white and black people.

I can't see where one isn't the same as the other -- if one was landmark tv, the other surely at least gets points for doing the same things, and getting girly kisses out there in front of the world, with a decent plotline to back them up.

</trekwank>

(Reply to this)(Thread)

oxydosic
2003-05-18 11:32 pm UTC (link)

You said it like i really wanted to. Thanks for giving me the words.

I have nothing against this guy, except what you stated. I personally would like to see a gay relationship on ST too. I know i'm not as personally invested in that since i'm not gay, but i really can see where he comes from on that.

At the same time..i feel like he's defeating himself by undercutting every possible gay/bisexual moment by finding fault in them. It just seems like he can't be happy. Maybe it just comes from him being so frustrated for so many years about the lack of gay characters. Maybe he sees any minor gay/bisexual mentions as an insulting placation. He wants the whole hog and he feels the ST people owe him and other fans that, so the occasional girl/girl kiss just isn't enough.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	What other potentially gay moments were there? karmakaze 2003-05-21 06:16 pm UTC (link)
	The only one I can think of is the Dax/ex-wife kiss, which was backpedaled on in the subtext. What other examples was he debunking? (I skimmed the artice and mostly the counterexamples were rumours) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: What other potentially gay moments were there? oxydosic 2003-05-21 07:44 pm UTC (link)
	He also mentions about the lesbian/bisexual scenes in the alternate universe episode of DS9. Kira was very obviously bi. However he discounted this example because all the relationships they showed were master/servant type things, so they didn't count. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: What other potentially gay moments were there? karmakaze 2003-05-21 07:58 pm UTC (link)
	Huh, that's funny. My objection to that sequence was not the implication that Alternate Kira was bi, but the implication that Alternate Kira being bi was merely more proof that she was evil. (You know, the whole lesbian=evil thing?) Add that in to the often suggested excuse in ST that "There are no gays in ST because it's been cured in the future"... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	backfromspace 2003-05-20 04:03 am UTC (link)
	Assuming the symbionts have genitalia, wouldn't that be more of a quadrisexual kiss? (Reply to this)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2003-09-22 01:13 am UTC (link)

I suppose this guy has never read "Pathways" then. Which is basically the standard for getting at least a portion of the Voyager Crew's history. Dear ole Harry had a roommate that was quite gay and looking at Harry as a potential lover. Unfortunately Harry, was clueless until he got his girlfriend and the roommate couldn't handle it anymore. But it seemed to me that Harry might have tried it out, if he wasn't in a relationship. And the fun thing about this is that I came to that conclusion before I got interested in yaoi and slash. Nope, no fangirlliness related to that conclusion.

Willow

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2003-09-22 01:15 am UTC (link)
	Regards her punctuation and smacks it Sorry about that. Thought I had the cursor in the right place. Guess not. (Reply to this)(Parent)