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Wham bam, we're in a jam! ([info]sarajayechan) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2004-09-22 12:27:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:*sporfle!*
Current music:Kenshin&Kaoru - Natsu no E

It's tiny, but it's definitely there
"Anyone who uses the word 'feminization' or any variants is a fake feminist who deserves to be shot for dissing women!"


(Post a new comment)


[info]ladyofviolets
2004-09-22 07:36 pm UTC (link)
And I had just posted that one in [info]i_wank...

I have lost the exclusive... *sobs*

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]sarajayechan
2004-09-22 07:39 pm UTC (link)
*meeps* Sorry. ^^;;;

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ladyofviolets, 2004-09-22 07:42 pm UTC

[info]wankprophet
2004-09-22 07:54 pm UTC (link)
So I can't call male-to-female transsexual surgery "feminization" anymore without risking my feminist cred?

Fuck.

Of course, all this pseudo-science and 9th grade psychology insight just makes me want to inject various sorts of hormones in some of these people and see how it changes them

*laughs the insane cackle of a mad F_W scientist*

(Reply to this)(Thread)


redwarrior
2004-09-22 09:00 pm UTC (link)
MUHUHAHAHA!!

...But I have the creepy feeling that the OP-er is very VERY fond of Janice Raymond and her Transphobic Hive-Vagina Comrades.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-09-24 05:51 am UTC

[info]shun_mcdaddy
2004-09-22 08:04 pm UTC (link)
See? That's why I left fanficrants...

"Come for the rants,Stay for the insults."-_-

It's always starts to wank when someone does a "Your not doing not writing him/her right",then it goes to "Don't tell me what to do!" or other defensive crap.

I mean,to be on there,you gotta be sane with both the original posters and the commenters to understand them sometimes. And most of the time,either don't make sense.

...I think I messed up,here?o_o;

(Reply to this)


[info]teratologist
2004-09-22 08:06 pm UTC (link)
God, this is getting to be way too much of a trend....

I kind of agree with the wanker a little bit.

She's being over-the-top, but it does kind of irk me that when a male character is acting in a way that no one, male or female, has ever acted, he's still somehow acting 'like a girl.' Even though girls don't act that way either.

And it is pretty well established that the traits we think of as 'masculine' and 'feminine', though clustered in different places along the sexuality continuum, are by no means binary. My partner baby-talks to the cats and loves his stuffed animals and cooks and cares far more than I do whether the house is clean, but his penis is still readily discernable. As I am happy to attest. (If anyone else wants to check, please send a naked photo for pre-approval.)

(Sometimes I really wish it were possible to be a non-gendered person in this society, but it seems that the more one tries, the more one just attracts attention to the very issues that one wants people to shut the friggin hell up and ignore in favor of more important things already. It ends up being a lot of work, and all I want is to be able to follow my natural inclination to be too damn lazy to care if I'm a boy or a girl. Does that make any sense?)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


ataniell93
2004-09-22 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Yes and I agree with both you and the wanker.

Another thing slashers who want butch/butch slash always seem to ignore is that in many historical periods it was the accepted norm for gay (and lesbian) couples to take on traditional gender roles according to inclination and that there was even some social pressure in the small and not necessarily so labelled 'gay communities' of the time.

Like, if the story is about two butch cops, fine, but if it's set in 1950? The issue should at least come up.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-09-22 08:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]teratologist, 2004-09-22 10:13 pm UTC
Hmm.
[info]ladybirdsleeps
2004-09-22 08:34 pm UTC (link)
That criticism is missing the point, to me; I don't think that anyone who disagreed with the original post thinks that these traits are exclusively feminine or even realistic. However, they are part of the "female" stereotype, and I do think it's this stereotype that's being tapped into (rather than just plain bad characterization) when authors write about Duo bursting into tears when Heero buys him flowers.

So, in wanky summation: I don't really think "feminization" is a good word either, but I can't think of a better one.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Hmm. - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-09-22 08:53 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-22 10:03 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 10:11 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-22 11:21 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 11:23 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]lurker32, 2004-09-22 11:51 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-24 11:00 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-09-23 02:20 am UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]kalika_maxwell, 2004-09-23 08:39 am UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-24 11:00 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-09-24 04:05 am UTC
Re: Hmm. - (Anonymous), 2004-09-24 04:36 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-24 11:04 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]resmiranda, 2004-09-22 09:00 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]teratologist, 2004-09-22 10:20 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2004-09-22 11:09 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: Sisters! - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-09-24 05:50 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-09-22 08:40 pm UTC (link)
when a male character is acting in a way that no one, male or female, has ever acted, he's still somehow acting 'like a girl.' Even though girls don't act that way either

As someone else pointed out, I think the issue is more when a male character is acting in a way that depicts the very worst *stereotypes* of females. As you say, I think there are very few men or women who *actually* act this way, but as a society we're conditioned to think *female* when a certain type of behavior (such as crying all the time) is exhibited.

Marivic

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]soraphilia
2004-09-22 08:41 pm UTC (link)
it does kind of irk me that when a male character is acting in a way that no one, male or female, has ever acted, he's still somehow acting 'like a girl.' Even though girls don't act that way either.

YES. Thank you. You said what I just tried to say in my post below, only you did a far better job of it.

A good example is Shuichi from Gravitation. People criticize his character for being a "chick with a dick" because "no guy really acts like that." Dude. Last I checked, nobody really acts like that, period. At least not unless they're very drunk or high on something, in which case a guy could be just as likely as a girl to act that way. o_O

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-09-22 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]crysiana, 2004-09-22 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2004-09-25 05:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-09-22 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 10:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oysteria, 2004-09-22 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiki, 2004-09-22 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiki, 2004-09-23 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-25 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-22 11:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-24 11:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2004-09-25 05:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]soraphilia, 2004-09-22 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:39 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-09-23 02:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2004-09-24 02:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-22 10:02 pm UTC
Sitcom logic - [info]karmakaze, 2004-09-22 10:09 pm UTC
Re: Sitcom logic - [info]teratologist, 2004-09-22 10:16 pm UTC
Re: Sitcom logic - [info]telophase, 2004-09-22 10:52 pm UTC
Re: Sitcom logic - [info]karmakaze, 2004-09-22 11:05 pm UTC

[info]soraphilia
2004-09-22 08:25 pm UTC (link)
I think I get the point the OP was trying to make. I always had a problem with people complaining about "turning guys into girls" if it was obvious they were using that as a way to say "making guys weepy and whiny." As if being weepy and whiny is a distinctly feminine trait that no male is capable of having. I think it could be better to say "turning guys into stereotypical girls." But if most people take it as a given that that's what's meant by just saying "girls," then I guess it's fine. *shrugs*

But yeah, speaking of phrasing things better... that's something this OP could have done. People like that are one of the main reasons I'd never call myself a feminist.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-09-22 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hypno_jango, 2004-09-22 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cie_anthy, 2004-09-22 09:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-22 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - wolfie_thu, 2004-09-23 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-09-23 03:44 pm UTC

[info]resmiranda
2004-09-22 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I wish more people would tell me how to be a feminist. To think I've been doing it wrong all this time!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-09-22 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2004-09-22 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lindentree, 2004-09-23 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jerel, 2004-09-23 11:56 pm UTC

redwarrior
2004-09-22 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Welp...my argument would be that the OP herself is very clingy to feminine stereotypes, and categorizes them as "100% pure good and light" whereas anything male, even in a man, is "100% EVOL!!1!!"

I like butch-on-butch slash because it's a conduit for getting into the mind and body of someone with my type of personality that actually has a penis. However, I can just hear the OP bitch at me..."YOU'RE BETRAYING WOMYNKIND!!!1one!!1!"

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]oysteria, 2004-09-22 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-09-22 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-22 11:35 pm UTC
(from joran) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 11:23 pm UTC

[info]rinoared
2004-09-22 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Will not go on a 10-page rampage about gender as a social construct, genderfluidity, or the semantics and differing readings of things, will not go on a 10-page rampage...

*puffs*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]krazycat, 2004-09-22 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2004-09-22 11:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-09-22 11:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alpheratz, 2004-09-23 01:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]crysiana, 2004-09-23 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-09-23 03:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jerel, 2004-09-24 12:01 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-09-22 09:19 pm UTC (link)
I'm with Joran, who said:

"Those who use "feminization" as slur are attacking those characters and the real people who fit the "stereotype." Which is scary."

Ditto.

(Reply to this)


[info]toxictattoo
2004-09-22 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Totally not getting it.

How is the word pussifying better at describing this phenominon than feminizing?

To say that a man is a pussy or even a wuss is to indicate that he is not exhibiting the 'male' characteristics (whatever those are) expected of males. And why would that be a bad thing?

Am I missing something?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-09-22 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-09-23 01:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 07:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xero_sky, 2004-09-22 10:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2004-09-25 05:50 am UTC
Another "agree with the OP" but think she's a wanker post...
[info]pipssister
2004-09-22 09:49 pm UTC (link)
I don't like the turning of guys into wussies, but I do get annoyed with the word "feminization," especially when the critiquers start bashing women while they're at it. "He doesn't cry, he's a MAN, not a teenage girl who cries at the drop of a hat." From that, I can see the annoyance, there's nothing wrong with women.

Although that doesn't mean I haven't used the term "feminization." Hell, when I reviewed Friday on Amazon.com I turned it around and called the main (female) character a "guy with breasts." I just hope I haven't bashed women or men in the process. The level of vitrol does become disconcerting, though.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Another "agree with the OP" but think she's a wanker post... - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-09-23 02:27 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!"
[info]selene_avis
2004-09-22 09:57 pm UTC (link)
Geeze. People have a problem with the 'feminization' of males not because females are evil/bad/wrong, but because males and females do have differences, and the 'feminization' is most often done in bad slash where the uke is feminized because most slash fangirls seem to have a promblem with two males in slash who act remotely like males. (I am actually starting to think that slash fangirls are secretly afraid to have any expossure to actual slash, so they have a het pairing disguised as slash so they can be all kool for liking the taboo slash without actually having to deal with anything new.) And this, everyone, is why the two males in the slash pairing for my story are both decisively masculine. Ha!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 10:03 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-22 10:15 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]teratologist, 2004-09-22 10:18 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-22 10:46 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 10:57 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-22 11:00 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 11:04 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-22 11:18 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 11:28 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-23 12:44 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]iczer6, 2004-09-22 11:42 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-23 12:45 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]iczer6, 2004-09-23 12:50 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]selene_avis, 2004-09-23 03:56 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 11:01 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 11:06 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 10:24 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]telophase, 2004-09-22 11:15 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-09-23 03:56 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - (Anonymous), 2004-09-27 05:36 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]lindentree, 2004-09-23 06:26 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]valarltd, 2004-09-23 08:02 am UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]llorelei, 2004-09-22 10:17 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 10:23 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - [info]iczer6, 2004-09-22 11:45 pm UTC
Re: "Long sentences are sexy!" - redwarrior, 2004-09-22 10:45 pm UTC

[info]panthea
2004-09-22 10:38 pm UTC (link)
I have nothing to say. Brandi Thorson says it all for me.

(Reply to this)

Deleted?
(Anonymous)
2004-09-22 11:49 pm UTC (link)
I tried to post a comment but lj tells me the entry has been deleted. Is lj on crack again or has it really been deleted? Does anyone have a copy, or lead on other threads where the argument is still taking place?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 11:54 pm UTC
Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-22 11:55 pm UTC
Re: Deleted? - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-22 11:59 pm UTC
Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:01 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 12:09 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2004-09-23 12:11 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:01 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 12:05 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:09 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 12:10 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:13 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 12:16 am UTC
Re: Deleted? - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:28 am UTC

[info]snarkbunny
2004-09-22 11:55 pm UTC (link)
Aw, deleted while I was reading.

Though I was able to save the HTML for the actual post and top-level comments. ;)

...

Too bad my webhost isn't working. At least I can still get into an old Tripod account. Enjoy. ;)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-09-23 02:28 am UTC

[info]adora_spintriae
2004-09-23 02:25 am UTC (link)
Awh, did anyone Furl it at all?

It seems so intellectually wanky, and they're my favourite kinds of wank.

(Reply to this)


[info]northatlantic
2004-09-23 03:25 am UTC (link)
You know, there's a lot of woman-bashing in fandom, but I just don't see it in the term feminization, or at least where I've encountered it* I think that feminization is exactly what the issue is, and it's not the woman-ness of it that's offensive, it's the fact that it runs counter to what we know about that character from canon. It's just as offensive when people woobify villains** or turn heretofore normal canon females into evil castrating bitches because they're inconvenient to The Big Gay Love.

Yes, it is perfectly okay for men to cry, to question their attractiveness, to angst about a partner's interest or lack thereof. But for most men raised in Western society, straight or queer, they show those things and express them in different ways than women, because straight or queer they've been socialized to from an early age. And if I've been watching a man be inarticulate about his emotions in canon, or flash up in rage when hurt instead of cry, or make fun of another character for being appearance-conscious, I'm going to assume that being gay does not magically make him sensitive and open, so if you make him so in fic I want to know what changed.

And I think feminization is particularly appropriate when the writer is clearly wearing a male character as a sockpuppet because the act of Mary Sue/self-insert has been thoroughly vilified, but slash doesn't carry that stigma. I mean, yes, a writer at some level has to use her own experience as ground to build up a core of emotional truth in her characters. But to use only that is sloppy, especially when you're writing far outside your knowledge, like, oh say, gay male popstars or cops or sportscasters. I think some of it is just that, sloppiness--I think some of it otherwise is someone who sees enough of herself in her chosen character that she's just basically grabbing a mask and a strap-on, because she doesn't want her friends to make fun of her for thinking it's hot to think about fucking Spike, so she uses Angel to do it instead.

If someone wants to get really huffy and excited about woman-bashing in fandom, I think they've got a lot more fertile ground to plow in both bitchification of canon females and why self-insert characters are such abominations they've got communities devoted to seeking them out and mocking them.

*disclaimer, I am one of those evol feminization-users, so take that as you will.

**which is not to say villains have to be cardboard evil cutouts or are uninteresting characters, but if you're selling me Draco Malfoy as sekritly Tha Sweet But Misunderstood, for example...no. just no.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]northatlantic, 2004-09-23 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deoridhe, 2004-09-23 04:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-09-23 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]northatlantic, 2004-09-23 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]northatlantic, 2004-09-23 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-09-23 06:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakunina, 2004-09-23 09:47 pm UTC

[info]valarltd
2004-09-23 08:12 am UTC (link)
::Sulks that post was deleted.::

I wrote a whole paper on gendercoding in Star Wars slash, and how Luke is very much a girl from description alone.

And I think "feminized" is an excellent term for Han to use in the AU where he encounters the Princesses Leia and Lucia of Alderaan (his beautiful boy is a beautiful girl)

I've done it, and deliberately. When the character was in a het relationship, he was a butch as possible. But once he got pregnant and was slashed, he turned into weepy, clingy and proposing marriage after a quick round of comfort sex.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-09-23 05:48 pm UTC
OMG TeH edi+0rZ of BUST R not REIL femunizts!!1!
[info]schoenschoen
2004-09-26 06:18 am UTC (link)
This is even funnier, because I recently saw an article in the new issue of Bust (the one with PJ Harvey on the cover?) called "Super Feminize Me!" - about what would happen if you shoved one particular pop-culture phenomenon down a woman's throat for a month straight (like, for instance, chick lit or Lifetime), Super Size Me style.

So basically, this chick is saying that Bust magazine is not run by 'real' feminists, either.

I'm sure they're re-evaluating their creds even as we speak.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: OMG TeH edi+0rZ of BUST R not REIL femunizts!!1! - (Anonymous), 2004-09-27 06:36 pm UTC
Re: OMG TeH edi+0rZ of BUST R not REIL femunizts!!1! - [info]schoenschoen, 2004-09-27 11:48 pm UTC

  
   
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