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Stalin ([info]stalin) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2004-10-16 10:23:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:E-V-O-L

Godawful wank follows pro writer home
The Godawful board is always good for a laugh, and just lately I've been following the discussion around pro TV writer Lee Goldberg. The original discussion can be seen here.

Lee Goldberg, to do him justice, bows out of Godawful when he realises that he's made a mistake in posting there at all. However, he follows up his original articles with a further three in his blog, here, and here and here and here where he quotes his brother in an attempt to fight off the evil fanficcers.

In reading these, don't miss the interventions of one David Montgomery - without him, there wouldn't be wank here at all - Lee Goldberg merely repeats his sincerely held view that fan ficition is a pointless waste of talent. He's entitled to this view, but does not appear to understand that others may have a different opinion and are no less entitled to that. David Montgomery (who he?) seems to make it his mission in life to make Lee Goldberg look a complete twat.

On the other hand Goldberg does not seem to want to take the oft-repeated advice that he approach the websites and ISPs of those hosting Diagnosis: Murder fanfiction and ask them to remove it. It seems (to me, anyway) that he'd rather whinge about the unfairness of life.

ETA: As I wouldn't want anyone to miss it, David Montgomery has drawn to my attention his new outpouring of splooge article, here. I think he's massively wrong in thinking that fanfiction has lots of writers but not many readers. I would direct him to the Pit of Voles, but it's...well, suffice it to say that nobody deserves that.


(Post a new comment)


[info]esseilte
2004-10-16 01:20 pm UTC (link)
You know, somehow I find it a bit odd for a TV writer to be bitching. I can understand authors doing it - yes, even the notorious Anne Rice, for all she's insane and her methods were dodgy. But someone who ALSO writes using characters he didn't create? Nope, not really feeling much sympathy here.

(Reply to this)


[info]dwarfjen
2004-10-16 01:35 pm UTC (link)
Your html is fucked up. But the wank is funny. Watch Mr Goldberg pull out Every! Standard! Argument! About! Fanfiction! Ever! *golfclap*

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]stalin
2004-10-16 03:40 pm UTC (link)
Your html is fucked up.

Thanks - I'd confused myself. I've given it a cold remedy and had it lie down for a bit in a darkened room and it should be better now.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]azazello, 2004-10-16 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stalin, 2004-10-16 09:27 pm UTC

[info]renata_hpjc
2004-10-17 01:27 am UTC (link)
Watch Mr Goldberg pull out Every! Standard! Argument! About! Fanfiction! Ever! *golfclap*

I know! You could practically go through his spiel with a checklist. "Fanfiction is a waste of talent": check. "It all sucks rocks anyway": check. "It's an insult to the original author": check.

Very well done indeed. :D

(Reply to this)(Parent)


kroki_refur
2004-10-16 01:51 pm UTC (link)
That said, I have read fan fiction, particular of shows I've worked on after they were canceled (like SEAQUEST, SHE-WOLF OF LONDON, etc). By and large, the fanfic I read was hideous swill.

Hey! I write seaQuest fanfiction! I'm hurt... Also, I wish people would stop telling him to go tell ff.net to ban stuff based off his work... I fear for my poor little fandom

This wank breaks so many JurisImprudence laws. It's beautiful, really. *wipes away a single tear*

(Also, your links are broken).

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]misswindy
2004-10-16 07:31 pm UTC (link)
the fanfic I read was hideous swill.

But if you think about it, doesn't everything pale in comparison to the heights of literary genius that She-Wolf In London reaches?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(no subject) - [info]labyrinthan_elf, 2004-10-16 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2004-10-16 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]labyrinthan_elf, 2004-10-17 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2004-10-17 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]labyrinthan_elf, 2004-10-17 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stalin, 2004-10-18 06:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2004-10-18 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stalin, 2004-10-17 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:30 pm UTC

[info]toxictattoo
2004-10-16 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Lee seems to have this hang up with slash. It's all he's ever seemed to have read and all he talks about in his examples.

Makes one wonder if his objection is with fanfiction or just tehhotmonkeyboysex of his characters.

He certainly has this pathological fear of mpregs.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]alina_kalime, 2004-10-16 06:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saxameup, 2004-10-16 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]random_fandom, 2004-10-17 04:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-10-22 05:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oysteria, 2004-10-16 11:19 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]bloody_vixen, 2004-10-16 03:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 02:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2004-10-18 02:32 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-19 09:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esseilte, 2004-10-16 03:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bloody_vixen, 2004-10-16 03:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esseilte, 2004-10-16 03:13 pm UTC
A guest - who is one of those perpetuating the fanficcers argument
(Anonymous)
2004-10-16 04:07 pm UTC (link)
I'm not surprised we've turned up on fandom wank. Actually, when I heard, it was more an, 'oh god, not again' moment. But anyway.

Mr Goldberg is acting..rather trite. In fact, as I've said in the long, long, long argument, it's like arguing with a five year old. Eventually, you lose your temper and say, 'well, you know what? Go call childline the big Fandom Saviour Lawyer, and sue our lazy arses.

Or, there's, y'know, the fact that he doesn't appear to -have a life-. I have an excuse! I'm a lazy student!

(Reply to this)


[info]lexin
2004-10-16 05:18 pm UTC (link)
Aparrently, you can't count: that's four, not three. Not that it makes the whole outpouring of splooge very much better, of course.

(Reply to this)

*facepalm*
[info]coyote
2004-10-16 05:21 pm UTC (link)
I participated in this. What got me started was that the man CANNOT debate to save his soul. You may notice he only responds to the arguements he can counter and ignores all the others.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: *facepalm* - [info]mpoetess, 2004-10-16 05:33 pm UTC
Obligitory musical sting! - [info]coyote, 2004-10-16 05:48 pm UTC
Re: *facepalm* - [info]pfeffermuse, 2004-10-16 06:20 pm UTC

[info]drworm
2004-10-16 07:21 pm UTC (link)
How dare you lump hurt/comfort stories in with slash fic! There is nothing sexual about hurt/comfort.

Yeah, but the ones that don't end in sex usually suck with their hideous sappy boringness. :/

Characters=not real. Fanfic=no profit. Professionals who seek out fanfic and are subsequently horrified=stupid.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:24 pm UTC
What a fucking tool
[info]zorrorojo
2004-10-16 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad he wastes his time worrying over fic writers wasting their time.

And hey, you tool, your show sucks ass. sorry Couldn't help myself.

Diagnosis Murder? He's worried about people stealing his *art* -- I'm busting a gut laughing, here.

Fanfic? Hobby. End of story. It's fun, it's a community of like-minded individuals and you have a built in reader base.

I write fic based on a show that was on the air for one year. It's been off the air for five. And guess what? It's a derivative of a derivative.

And I write slash. Why? Because it's hot.

No desire to be a published author here, just a desire to have some fun. What is so damned hard to understand about that.

He does seem to be severly traumatised by the mpreg. I can feel his pain on that one. But know what I do when a TV show... say something like diagnosis muder... doesn't appeal to me? Heh! I don't watch it! Am I fucking genius or what?

I feel special that he's worried about me wasting my (horrible) talent and my time. Oh, to be so cared about by a total stranger. It gives me the warm and fuzzies. I feel wuved!

This is the funniest thing I've seen in ages. I've even come out of fandom_wank retirement to comment.

See, fanfic is fun!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: What a fucking tool - [info]amand_r, 2004-10-16 08:17 pm UTC
Re: What a fucking tool - [info]zorrorojo, 2004-10-16 08:39 pm UTC
Re: What a fucking tool - (Anonymous), 2004-10-19 05:59 pm UTC
Re: What a fucking tool - [info]stalin, 2004-10-16 09:31 pm UTC
Re: What a fucking tool - [info]mistressrenet, 2004-10-16 10:47 pm UTC
Re: What a fucking tool - [info]nightfish, 2004-10-19 01:54 am UTC

[info]rosalita
2004-10-16 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Jesus, I think this guy must be talking to He Who Must Not Be Named. They have the same arguments. And they're both morons.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-10-16 09:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stalin, 2004-10-16 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-16 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-10-16 11:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]crysiana, 2004-10-17 10:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosalita, 2004-10-17 12:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:34 pm UTC

[info]mpoetess
2004-10-16 08:50 pm UTC (link)
While I lack my partner's obsessive dislike of fanfic, I will share his assumption that everyone who writes fanfic is not published... unless you're talking about the insanely rare fanficcer who just sold that first or second story. ~Bill Rabkin

Like Neil Gaiman, for instance.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Tears of Joy - [info]pfeffermuse, 2004-10-16 10:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2004-10-16 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-10-17 12:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2004-10-17 04:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-10-17 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2004-10-17 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-10-17 07:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2004-10-17 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-10-18 11:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]crysiana, 2004-10-17 10:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]littlekitsch, 2004-10-19 06:28 pm UTC
*ahem* Not Published? - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 07:54 pm UTC
Re: *ahem* Not Published? - [info]suzycat, 2004-10-18 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:37 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-10-16 08:51 pm UTC (link)
I followed this link over from the original discussion and was pleased to see myself mentioned in your post.

I'm new to this community and am having a little trouble with the slang...

The discussion, though, is a hoot.

David Montgomery

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stalin, 2004-10-16 09:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-16 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stalin, 2004-10-16 10:41 pm UTC

kroki_refur
2004-10-16 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Found a sample chapter of Mr. Goldberg's "comic novel", Beyond the Beyond, here. I laughed until I cried. I haven't seen talent like that since Leggy-chan's classic Harry Potter and the Mpreg of Aragorn.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]oysteria, 2004-10-16 11:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2004-10-16 11:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pfeffermuse, 2004-10-16 11:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]drworm, 2004-10-17 01:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-17 04:49 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 07:40 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 10:32 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 02:43 pm UTC
Oh. My. Word. - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 05:10 pm UTC
Re: Oh. My. Word. - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 06:10 pm UTC
Doncha just LOVE his ego? - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 10:55 pm UTC
Re: Oh. My. Word. - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 08:05 pm UTC
Re: Oh. My. Word. - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 08:06 pm UTC
Re: Oh. My. Word. - [info]panthea, 2004-10-17 11:03 pm UTC
is he actually serious? - (Anonymous), 2004-10-18 03:40 pm UTC

[info]iczer6
2004-10-16 11:34 pm UTC (link)
What gets me is the whole fanfic = theft argument.

I mean it's really hard to *steal* a TV show, I guess fanficcers are really Carmen SanDeiago in disguise.

I don't see how someone writing and posting a story will somehow change the original work, and why so many people seem to assume that fanfic has that kind of power.


Icz

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2004-10-17 08:57 am UTC
More splooge from Moi
[info]iczer6
2004-10-16 11:42 pm UTC (link)
5) Writing FanFic might be of some use to its creator as a learning tool, but the writer would be a lot better off creating his/her own works, if they can.

Now this irks me.

Dude fanfic is for many people a hobby, sure it can be pratice for someone who plans to go into writing as a career but I hate the assumption that everyone who writes fanfic wants to be a professional writer.

I mean can't people write fic because they enjoy it, or they're interested in the characters and their world? Why is a hobby considered worthwhile if you can use it to make money at a later date? I thought people had hobbies because they were fun.

I mean it's kinda like telling someone who likes to knit that they're wasting their time and should be running a clothing factory. Sure maybe they do want to be designer or maybe they knit because they like to knit.


Icz

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: More splooge from Moi - [info]rosalita, 2004-10-17 12:21 am UTC
Re: More splooge from Moi - [info]iczer6, 2004-10-17 09:14 am UTC
Re: More splooge from Moi - [info]mrbimble, 2004-10-17 04:46 am UTC
Re: More splooge from Moi - (Anonymous), 2004-10-19 06:38 pm UTC

[info]phosfate
2004-10-17 04:44 am UTC (link)
This amuses me. Mr. Goldberg has based some of his best-known work (e.g., both version of Beyond the Beyond) on his experiences with fan fiction writers, and doubtless made some money in the process. If you visit his site, it's hard to think of him as anything other than a big ole wanktastic TV fanboy. He's got the theme tune from The Zoo Gang up there, for God's sake! You don't get more hardcore fanboy than that. (No, I'm not saying that's a bad thing.) His preaching to fan fiction writers is sort of like Bruce Timm telling little kids not to watch cartoons because they'll rot their brains.

All other things aside, however, it's really hard to be offended by blanket assessments from anyone who bears partial responsibility for Diagnosis Murder.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nightfish, 2004-10-19 01:49 am UTC

[info]nevadafighter
2004-10-17 09:03 am UTC (link)
Mr. Goldberg, please SHUT THE FUCK UP and DIE, plzkthxbai.

Your rhetorical skills are nil. You wank hard enough to snap the goddamn thing OFF so stop already.

Oh, and one of your overly facile arguments contains a rather large flaw (one of many): The implication that fanfic is responsible for bad writing is so ignorant it made me laugh. Bad writing has ALWAYS existed—fandoms and the Internet have just made it easier to disseminate. Before then people who cranked out crap didn't have the means to spread it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-17 05:16 pm UTC

[info]crysiana
2004-10-17 10:22 am UTC (link)
This is the first time it's taken me a great deal of effort not to go in and start arguing with someone. Or, you know, to do a bohemianchick and rant here, where, if people do read my comments, I'm preaching to the converted.

To boil it down to my basic reaction, 1) illegal and unethical are not the same thing, and 2) widespread ownership of shared culture dampens creativity more than anything else, and you can damn well ask people who write about the dangers of copyright or folklorists or native groups who find their own religious songs copyrighted in the "civilized world" about that. So I, waiting for 2008 (I believe) to be able to stand on a street corner and sing "Happy Birthday" without being dragged to court, tell you, Mr. Goldberg, to fuck the hell off.

(Reply to this)


[info]mister_terrific
2004-10-17 07:42 pm UTC (link)
I've been giving this a lot of thought before posting, having seen this kind of flare-up a few times before (ah, the GEnie message boards, you are sorely missed).

First, Mr. Goldberg's points about the illegality of fan fiction are all quite correct. I don't think anyone can dispute the fact. Whether this is right or wrong is a question of opinion.

Second...I have to wonder what drew Mr. Goldberg's attention to GAFF. I mean, given how often it's moved in the past year or so, it's not easily found, and I'd think you'd have to give a pretty specific set of Google parameters to lock in on it. I find this interesting...perhaps Mr. Goldberg had been lurking there for some time?

Third...I cannot help but wonder just what Mr. Goldberg expected his commentary to accomplish. Tears of remorse? Pleas for redemption and enlightenment? A professional writer going into a fan fiction forum and orating on "fanfic is teh evil" is akin to walking into a den of lions with your raw meat vest on.

Perhaps all Mr. Goldberg wanted was an opportunity to stir shit and run back to his circle of professional writers, giggling about what he'd done. I don't know. I don't know the man and cannot comment on his actions with any degree of certainty. Not, of course, that he can't comment on mine.

Finally...I'm waiting for the "Every time you write a DM mpreg, you make Lee Goldberg cry" icon to appear.

Mister Terrific
Defender of Fair Play

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pfeffermuse, 2004-10-18 03:32 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-10-18 05:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2004-10-19 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]renata_hpjc, 2004-10-19 02:00 am UTC
And to grasp his full literary range...
(Anonymous)
2004-10-17 11:14 pm UTC (link)
Don't miss the exerpt from 'My Gun Has Bullets': http://www.lgoldberg.com/My%20Gun%20Has%20Bullets%20Pages/sample_chapter.htm

In my mind, I can here the giggling of a teenage boy because he just said 'coming like Vesuvius' and 'large, authentic breasts'. Or he's under the covers, reading smutty pulp fiction, giggling over 'coming like Vesuvius' while he wanks off.

A few minutes later, he mom calls "Johnny, are you asleep yet?" as her footsteps coming up the hall, towards his door. Paniked that his mom might find out he jerks off and reads pulp fictiom (because she'd take it away and it took him forever to convince Pete to give it to him in exchange for a stack of Superman comic books), he shuts the flashlight off, crawls back up to his pillow, making sure the book is hidden under him, the flashlight tucked by his side. The fear of his mother discovering his dirty little secrets killed his hard-on, but he'll go back at it when she goes away.

"I was until you woke me!" he shots back, trying to sound appropriately sleepy.

"Sorry!" He hears her walk away, and when he's sure she won't hear him giggling and grunting, he goes back under the covers to read more about breasts and throbing manhood while furiously jerking on his.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]suziecroft, 2004-10-18 12:54 am UTC
Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]pfeffermuse, 2004-10-18 08:29 am UTC
Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 05:19 pm UTC
Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]pfeffermuse, 2004-10-18 07:16 pm UTC
Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]phosfate, 2004-10-18 07:24 pm UTC
Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]bubosquared, 2004-10-19 12:04 am UTC
Re: And to grasp his full literary range... - [info]suzycat, 2004-10-18 09:22 am UTC

[info]deirdre
2004-10-18 07:48 am UTC (link)
I think he's massively wrong in thinking that fanfiction has lots of writers but not many readers.

::snort::

Does he want to see the stats from Gossamer back in the days of X-Files craze? (You know, like 1998 or so.) When we were getting 40,000-60,000 hits a days (per site) from many thousand of unique individuals, and I doubt that they were all writers.

Especially given that I think that we only have like 4,000 unique writers NOW.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nightfish, 2004-10-19 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deirdre, 2004-10-19 05:44 am UTC

  
   
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