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	herongale 2005-04-09 06:31 am UTC (link)
	Long =/= Wank. Sorry. The Moste Potente (rolls eyes at her name) is opinionated, and her opinion is certainly debatable, but she's fairly cordial to the dissenters, and the dissenters in turn are very nice back. If you're going to hold are really wanky POV, this is the way to go about it... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	iczer6 2005-04-09 06:34 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, in this case the wank isn't in the comments, everyone's pretty polite and level-headed there, but in the original post which is IMO just dripping with spooge. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	herongale 2005-04-09 06:37 am UTC (link)
	Bring it. :) Yeah, that's pretty amusing. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lessis 2005-04-09 06:33 am UTC (link)
	Ugh, I have a hard enough time getting critique on my stuff without some-one saying certain people shouldn't give critique. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2005-04-09 06:41 am UTC (link)
	Oh yes, that's got to be the wankiest post in the history of Potterdom. I'm sure in fandom speak 'Love to hear everyone's thoughts on this' really means 'fuck you and your opinions.' Come on now. (Reply to this)

	reinhardt 2005-04-09 06:44 am UTC (link)
	Since when do you need to be an artist to critique art?! To put it another way, I'm not much of a writer but I know when a sentence or paragraph feels clunky or doesn't work. Just because someone doesn't practice your chosen art doesn't mean their opinion is invalid. ... Um... I'll clean up after myself. Just let me get the mop and bucket. (Reply to this)

	ataniell93 2005-04-09 06:45 am UTC (link)
	As a participant in the discussion I have to say I don't see the spooge. Perhaps it's on the back of my head and I didn't notice, but it looks to me like another case of "An HP fan has an opinion, and thus is branded a wanker." (Reply to this)(Thread)

	marlo 2005-04-09 06:48 am UTC (link)
	I agree. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kyuuketsukirui 2005-04-09 06:52 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, but it's a wanky opinion. I don't think it belongs on fw, but I was definitely thinking "bitch, are you for real?" when I read her post. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ataniell93 2005-04-09 07:18 am UTC (link)
	Well, I think it's a wrong opinion, but I've encountered it before. When I was 8 I said I didn't like a piece of sculpture and the other girl I was with got all freaked out and said that I shouldn't say anything unless I could do better. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	furiosity 2005-04-09 07:41 am UTC (link)
	Word. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	azazello 2005-04-09 09:37 am UTC (link)
	"An HP fan has an opinion, and thus is branded a wanker." Good lord, yes. She had the temerity to express her opinions on her own live journal. Disgraceful. Arrogant thing. /irony (Reply to this)(Parent)

sitt_isis
2005-04-09 06:58 am UTC (link)

Speaking as someone who does occasionally pick up a pencil and draw, I've gotten some of my most helpful critiques from someone who couldn't draw a straight line if her life depended on it.

Just because you don't have the motor coordination, doesn't mean you don't have the eye.

& I really don't see much of a wank here either. Although, this is the HP fandom, right? So it's more than feasible that by tomorrow morning someone will have started a whole big routine of:

You're stupid!
You suck!
Nyah nyah!

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	phosfate 2005-04-11 09:28 pm UTC (link)
	Truly. "Is that thing with the thing there right?" is perfectly helpful, so long as they can point at the bit they mean. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	cathowl 2005-04-09 07:00 am UTC (link)
	tl;dr Because people who can't draw don't have eyes and brains. And people who've never directed shouldn't become movie critics, either! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	cathowl 2005-04-09 07:04 am UTC (link)
	Correcting self I shouldn't have used that acronym, because I meant I didn't even look to see how long it was, I just didn't read it. Maybe for me it stands for "Too Lazy, Didn't Read". (Reply to this)(Parent)

	adora_spintriae 2005-04-09 08:21 am UTC (link)
	I fail to see the wank. toodles off to comment in the post instead (Reply to this)(Thread)

atalantapendrag
2005-04-09 09:51 am UTC (link)

*shrug* Didn't seem terribly wanky to me either. I can see both points of view. I'm not an artist. I used to draw for fun as a kid, but I wasn't any good at it. I don't feel that I have enough of a grasp on the basic principles to leave a useful critique.

I think constructive criticism is an excellent thing and I try to leave as much as I can for fic, but I very rarely am able to come up with concrit on art; if I see a piece of fanart I don't like my reaction is usually just "ugh", and that doesn't help anyone.

But that's my personal choice, and I don't care if other people have a different take on the matter.

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adora_spintriae
2005-04-09 10:06 am UTC (link)

Heh. I actually understand why people don't leave crit for art like they do fic. We're raised in a society that still has hoighty-toighty ideas about art (which are slowly changing), like "it's all subjective" and such. Which even though I'm an artist, I don't agree with at all. I think it breeds preciousness in artists, which is never a good thing.

Because of this, people aren't taught to criticise art the way they are with other forms of media. So even if you have an "ugh" reaction, it's less likely you'll be able to articulate (or even consciously identify) why you don't like it. I wish this would change, but I'm not really sure how you'd go about it on a large-scale.

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atalantapendrag
2005-04-09 10:26 am UTC (link)

If I can verbalize what seems off in a helpful way, like saying the angle of someone's arm looks off or the perspective is wonky or the shading is too dark and makes the composition muddy, that's one thing. If my reaction is "that looks like something I drew when I was 12", it's not going to do anyone any good.

Any form of art is subjective to a degree (which is why the posters on my walls are Pre-Raphaelites rather than Impressionists), but you have to have a grasp of basics, and you need to know the rules before you can break them in ways that work. And that's true with fic as well as visual art; not using capital letters doesn't make you don marquis and incoherence doesn't make you James Joyce.

Derivative plots don't make you Shakespeare, either. *g*

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	adora_spintriae 2005-04-09 10:31 am UTC (link)
	Heh. I love the Pre-Raphs. I love the Impressionists as well, but I have your icon permanently attached to my wall, whereas all the other things around it change every few months. Oh, and Frederic Leighton is my Art God and all. :D (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

atalantapendrag
2005-04-09 10:55 am UTC (link)

*jerks head at icon* That's one of the few I don't have as just a poster or even a framed print; I have a (small) canvas replica. Only other one I have on canvas is Millais' Ophelia.

In fairness, it's not all Pre-Raph; I've got Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights, a replica of an early map of the moon, a cheesy Stonehenge poster, Girl with a Pearl ~~Necklace~~ Earring, and a signed limited-edition Diane DiMassa print.

And while I deeply adore Waterhouse, I kneel at the altar of Evelyn de Morgan.

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OT Rambling

rosehiptea
2005-04-09 03:02 pm UTC (link)

I agree; I find it easier to leave concrit for fics than for art, but it's not because I write often but I don't really draw. It's more because of what you're saying: I'm never sure how to talk about what I don't like (or what I do like.)

I think art education in the schools wouldn't hurt. Both appreciation of art and making art. Students take apart literature and their own writing for hours on end, and they're encouraged (OK, forced) to write whether they're any good at it or not. I know there are other reasons for that, but still, it's a huge disparity. I'm not an artist and I draw almost not at all, but just trying gives me more appreciation and a better idea of it.

My two cents.

(I don't want to talk about what artists I like because I'll be laughed out of here. ~~Surrealists, and modern... stuff... and Paul Klee~~)

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	Re: OT Rambling coffee_mug 2005-04-09 04:11 pm UTC (link)
	I have Paul Klee posters so I'm not laughing. :] (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: OT Rambling atalantapendrag 2005-04-09 08:29 pm UTC (link)
	looks at Bosch poster Surreal is good. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: OT Rambling
(Anonymous)
2005-04-10 06:19 am UTC (link)

You don't get art education? In New York City public schools, it's mandatory.
I don't draw fanart, but I think I can competently give some sort of critique. Used to practically run them in art class. To a certain degree there are objective standards. Line, composition, color, shading, do they work together to achieve what the artist is trying to convey?

(Hmm, I don't want to mention the ones I like cause I come off as being pretentious. Lichtenstein, Degas, Dutch masters,
Story645 on lj

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	Re: OT Rambling rosehiptea 2005-04-10 06:22 am UTC (link)
	I went to private school in California, and quite a while ago. I don't know what it's like in the public schools here now. I had art education up to about ninth grade and that's all I remember having. In my humble opinion and limited experience private schools are overrated, but that's another rant. (Reply to this)(Parent)

kookaburra
2005-04-09 07:49 pm UTC (link)

Ditto, ditto, ditto- I actually never ask for critique within the art dept at my college (I'm an art major) because they seem to be physically unable to say that something is bad about a piece of art. I always go to my CS and math major friends, who don't have an artistic bone in their body.

PS- check out http://www.artrenewal.org. They're a group dedicated to going back to pre-modernist artistic standards.

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(Anonymous)
2005-04-09 09:11 am UTC (link)

Damn, but I have the urge to go bring the wank to that post...I saw it and couldn't believe it. There is nothing I hate more in this world then page after page of comments on a piece of mine or others art saying "OMG! THAT IS LIKE SO GOOOOOD. SQUEE!" Seriously, STFU. My opinion is if you don't have anything meaningful to say, don't say anything at all. That includes both people who's entire comment consists of "that sux", and people who note only "that's HAWT/hott/however the cool way to spell 'I-like-seeing-Draco's-dick-in-HP's-behind' is"
You like it, great! Why? You don't like it? Even better! Tell me what you think should change.
Especially for a beginning artist, having two comments saying "this is what I liked, but this looks sort of off" is better then no comments at all because then they think their art has no redeemable features what-so-ever. I find as long as you follow the art-student-rule-of-thumb (always balance out a constructive criticism with a positive remark) the thrill of knowing someone actually took the time to look at the art long enough to make a constructive comment is a much more positive reward for your effort then a comment of only incoherant capital letters and exclamation points.
All those people saying they only leave comments if they like the art. Grrrr...

-art!mouse with no-name...

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	adora_spintriae 2005-04-09 10:10 am UTC (link)
	offers cheese (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2005-04-09 10:14 am UTC (link)

Aww don't bring the wank.
Of rather wank the art community. I personaly think the art community (and ehre I mean the art community as a institution, not fanartists per se) brought this attitude on themselves with the "everythig is art" you don't get it" "You're too stupid to udnerstand art" "all art is good" etc etc etc stupidity.

I can see how it might be *extremely* intemidating to crit someone who you feel is a good artist.

Also though, I know a few good artist who have gone utterly apeshit over crits (god I wanna name names) with the feeling that people should appreciate what they post and shut the fuck up about minor things. So yeah one or two hostile artists ruin it for everyone -_-

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marks
2005-04-09 08:02 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, but a lot of artists and writers love those comments where the reviews are little more than a squee. I know I do; the fact that anyone's taken the time -- any time -- to comment on something I've written makes me incredibly happy. This isn't to say that I don't love long, helpful comments, too, but I'd rather page after page with OMG SQUEE and nothing else than no comments at all.

If it really bothers you, the anonymity probably isn't helping things.

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	atalantapendrag 2005-04-09 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	Oh yes; an OMG SQUEE may not be helpful in the long run, but it is an encouraging ego boost, and there are times when that counts for a lot. To oversimplify, a squee is a candy bar, an intelligent and detailed critique is a nourishing meal. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ultimate_cin 2005-04-09 11:13 pm UTC (link)
	I think that is the best description of the difference between "OMGLOVEITMOREMOREMORE" and actual critiquing I have ever read. Kudos to you! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	"Counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor..." atalantapendrag 2005-04-09 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	I'm sure I'm not the first person to come up with that analogy, but I'm glad you like it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: "Counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor..." (Anonymous) 2005-04-10 04:25 am UTC (link)
	....death's too good for them. (mouse) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: "Counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor..." baskinglizard 2005-04-10 07:45 am UTC (link)
	Ha. I had to google that to figure out why it sounded so familiar. Well done. ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: "Counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor..." atalantapendrag 2005-04-10 08:07 am UTC (link)
	And if I'd written it in another language, you could have used Babelfish g (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sockonhand 2005-04-09 01:00 pm UTC (link)
	Aww, this is soooo polite for HP! Good job HP! F_w tried to get you, but you prevailed. waits for tomorrow (Reply to this)

coffee_mug
2005-04-09 01:36 pm UTC (link)

Hmm, this isn't wanky enough for this icon.

I suppose

I don't know why, but when I see a non-artist critiquing an artist's work, it drives me bugfucky. I always want to lash out and say, 'look bitch, if you think you can do better -- bring it.

was pretty wanky, but just more in the sense of "Okay, I could be wanky and do that but I don't because I realize it's asshatty".

To be honest, I fail to critique artists because I just don't know how to be constructive. I know how to write, how writing works, so I can tell someone they should work on their flow or add more description or whatever, but if I was to critique art, it'd be like "Um, draw better?". I couldn't tell someone how to work on something, I couldn't point out what they should do exactly to improve their works.

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fandom_bitch
2005-04-09 11:31 pm UTC (link)

Er...where's the wank? I can't find it. waaaah...

Oh, well, there's some potential wank in the commenter that said something to the effect that Photoshopped art ain't real art if it's done by someone that can't draw worth a damn with "REAL" artists tools (which made me go wtf?), but it was so teeny it really didn't go anywhere.

Ah well...potential wankage, sure, but it didn't get there.

::sniff::

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greenling
2005-04-10 05:02 am UTC (link)

...I'd say it's pretty wanky of her for being driven bugfuck by the idea of someone criticizing someone else's work. Particularly since most artists I know beg, scrape and plead to be criticized by anyone and everyone they can get, and constantly attempt to counteract this thought that they don't want non-artists to say anything.

I've never someone get that kind of reaction when people who don't write fiction criticize a story, so long as it's actual criticism. I have no idea where she got this idea that artists who DON'T like it are anything more than writers who bitch at honest criticism with "let's see you do better". It's the same damn thing...

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	morbid_angel 2005-04-10 05:55 am UTC (link)
	Because I'm an artist myself...I can understand why that person feels that way. But whatever. Good journal post though. Nothing to wank over, but thats just me. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2005-04-11 12:51 am UTC (link)
	But where has all the wank gone? This is why FW started sucking -- it got wankier than the wank it was supposed to be pointing to. Ah, for the good old days when we were actually on LJ. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	phosfate 2005-04-11 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	Then go thou, seekest wank, and post it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2005-04-11 02:45 am UTC (link)
	Where's da wank? (Reply to this)