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	pradaloz 2003-06-10 09:21 pm UTC (link)
	I just wish he could understand how HURTFUL it is for him to say these horrible things about Spike to people who love and who deeply IDENTIFY WITH Spike. Oooooooh boy. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	petulance 2003-06-10 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	Teensy weensy identity issues. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!

katemonkey
2003-06-10 09:32 pm UTC (link)

And this also goes with ASH's comment that Giles was right to try to kill Spike because any parent would want to protect their daughter from an abusive relationship. Hello! Yeah, it was an abusive relationship--in which BUFFY was the abuser! But oh, no, she's just a poor meek little woman! Nothing's ever her fault.

And

And people kept defending him, going "Oh, he just doesn't want to teach women to idealize men who treat them badly." Yeah, but that's not what happened with Spike and Buffy! I was IN a shitty relationship where I was getting used. I know exactly how they work. And who did I identify with? SPIKE. Spike is the one who was getting used and abused, both emotionally and phsycially, by Buffy. Buffy was the one with all the power in that relationship. They met when and where she wanted, NOT where he wanted. She had the control over what they did and didn't do. She was the one who refused to tell anyone, when he wanted to be open, she was the one who refused to TALK when he wanted to talk, etc etc etc. She is the one who BEAT HIM HALF TO DEATH AND LEFT HIM LYING IN AN ALLEY, and never even APOLOGIZED or told anyone who mattered what she had done! I am so fucking sick of hearing what an abuser Spike was and what a victim Buffy was, because that is absolute bullshit.

Wow.

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Re: Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!

lasultrix
2003-06-10 11:18 pm UTC (link)

I actually totally agree that Spike is pussy-whipped beyond belief in S7. I don't know if Buffy's abusing him, but she's certainly using him. Of course, he's letting her, no question there.

And... oh dear, I seem to be defending the wank here - I do see the girl's point about being pissed off about JM being condescending towards Spike's female fans. He does appear to have been saying, 'Spike's evil and you fancied him too much to notice. Get with the picture, girls.'

Expecting him to defend Spike just because the audience liked him, however, is wanky.

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Re: Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!

iczer6
2003-06-10 11:34 pm UTC (link)

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<<He does appear to have been saying, 'Spike's evil and you fancied him too much to notice. Get with the picture, girls.'>>

Thing is [and I know I run the risk of being wanky myself] he's RIGHT.

I blame Marti Noxin. After all the whole Spuffy/Spike character rape thing was her idea.

Icz

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	Re: Ahahahahahahahahahahaha! lasultrix 2003-06-11 12:00 am UTC (link)
	I utterly despise S7 Spike, but JM seems to be saying "He's an evil abuser and you shouldn't forgive him because he's pretty!" rather than the more correct "He's a weak, lily-livered, Buffy-worshipping pathetic excuse for a man and you shouldn't forgive him because he's pretty!" (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Ahahahahahahahahahahaha! pradaloz 2003-06-11 03:46 am UTC (link)
	I think JM's comments were supposed to be about Season Six Spike (oooh, alliteration!). Then again, all I know about this is from the LJ post linked here, so I'm probably confused. But yeah, totally with you on S7 Spike hate. Your balls, Spike! Didn't you used to have a pair? Could you please try to remember where you put them? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: Ahahahahahahahahahahaha! lm 2003-06-13 01:18 am UTC (link)
	I do see the girl's point about being pissed off about JM being condescending towards Spike's female fans. Well, at least he wasn't humping the air and making lewd comments to a bunch of 13-year-olds like he did back in February when I saw him in concert. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jfpbookworm 2003-06-10 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. That upset with what an actor said at a con? [shatner]Get a life![/shatner] (Reply to this)(Thread)

	soleta 2003-06-10 10:42 pm UTC (link)
	I usually hate Shatner for saying that (way to antagonize your fan base, there) but right now... I have to agree. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	daijinryuu 2003-06-11 12:38 am UTC (link)
	You do realize that was a well-received-by-most-fans Saturday Night Live sketch, yes? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	raisedbyhyenas 2003-06-11 02:27 am UTC (link)
	As a former diehard Trekkie m'self, I thought that was utterly hilarious. Even at my worst/geekiest. Anyone who's HURT by that...he was 100% right, GET A FUCKING LIFE. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	embitca 2003-06-10 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	Oh come on, at least a half a dozen on LJ contributed to this kerfuffle with their own posts both pro and con. Link 'em all so we can mock! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	deeablo 2003-06-10 09:58 pm UTC (link)
	Man, that would take WORK. And since I don't know where to look . . . Send me the links and I'll add 'em. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	embitca 2003-06-10 10:01 pm UTC (link)
	I don't have time. I shouldn't even be checking this sneaks back to work (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ipomoea 2003-06-10 10:44 pm UTC (link)
	Yeeeeeaaaahhhhh. I saw bunches of posts over this on my friends list yesterday. There's some seriously scary Buffy fans out there, if they overreact this much to secondhand reporting of someone else's interpretation of what someone said. My reaction to the whole thing was just a pause to see what the kerfluffle was all about, say "Okay" and go on my merry little way. (Reply to this)

	snacky 2003-06-10 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	There goes another train, jumping off the reality track. "Just repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax" (Reply to this)(Thread)

	aruru 2003-06-10 11:29 pm UTC (link)
	I always did think that line from the MST3K theme was the best way to sum up the F_W philosophy... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	gairid 2003-06-11 03:03 am UTC (link)
	hugs Snacky for the MST3K song ref (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	snacky 2003-06-11 04:00 am UTC (link)
	It's how I lived through all those years of XF flamewars. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	singe 2003-06-11 03:50 am UTC (link)
	La la la! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	gelasius 2003-06-11 12:53 am UTC (link)
	::shrug:: It just seems like your standard Argument About Buffy Themes, to me. We Whedonverse fanatics get pretty, well, fanatical about the interpretations of our characters, especially Spike. Maybe it's just that I stand somewhere in the middle of this flamewar, so no particular side seems that bizarre to me. (Reply to this)(Thread)

iczer6
2003-06-11 04:09 am UTC (link)

>>We Whedonverse fanatics get pretty, well, fanatical about the interpretations of our characters, especially Spike>>

Well the thing is James Martsers is NOT some Buffy geek with a LJ, he's on the damn show! He's worked with the writers, actors and produecers of BtVS, and fhas proably spoken with Whendon himself.

So I think he deserves LITTLE credit for understanding the character HE'S PLAYED FOR SEVERAL YEARS!

The issue isn't so much what he said, it seems that the real problem was he didn't tell the fangirls what they wanted to hear. So he must some horrible dream-crushing monster.

Icz

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	pradaloz 2003-06-11 04:42 am UTC (link)
	So he must some horrible dream-crushing monster. Now I'm visualizing JM as the ME monster at the end of the credits. Grr. Argh. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	katemonkey 2003-06-11 11:18 am UTC (link)
	Hmm.. Skinny? Check. Skin stretched scarily over bones? Check. Looking like a puppet made out of sticks and leather? Check. I think we have a separated at birth moment here. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sajasma 2003-06-12 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	Now, I am a Spike fan...but your icon! sporfle (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re:

gelasius
2003-06-11 04:49 am UTC (link)

So I think he deserves LITTLE credit for understanding the character HE'S PLAYED FOR SEVERAL YEARS!

::hides from the shouting::

Yes, I agree with that. If I were in a position to care very much about this, I would have been really pissed off when people started namecalling, because that was just lame. I'm not going to get into what small things I disagreed with in the reported comments, either, because it's all been said. Am I too apathetic to hang out at f_w? Even when it comes to my own fandom? Heh.

::shrug::

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	mireille 2003-06-11 05:32 am UTC (link)
	While I'm not all that involved in Buffy fandom, nor am I upset by what Marsters said (I disagree with some of it, but, eh)-- I was in Blakes 7 fandom for years, and Paul Darrow may have played Avon for four years, but he had absolutely no clue what his character was all about. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

iczer6
2003-06-11 05:36 am UTC (link)

>>and Paul Darrow may have played Avon for four years, but he had absolutely no clue what his character was all about>>

Well actors can and do miss the points in the shows/plays/movies/whatever. But I know nothing about Blake7 so I really can't comment.

And while I agree that Marsters could've been a bit more accommodating I still think that someone who worked closely with the writer and creator of the series just might have a better handle on the character the average fan.

This isn't a law or anything, just seems pretty likely.

Icz

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mpoetess
2003-06-11 07:31 am UTC (link)

I'd say (totally respectfully) that he's in a position to have a better handle on what he intended to portray, and what the directors told him to portray. But he's not in a better position to evaluate what actually appeared on the screen-- he's in a worse one, because his opinion is tainted by what he knows/thinks the intent was.

And I am familiar with Blake's 7 -- she's so, so right. With Paul Darrow we had an actor who very much had that same JM charisma with fans, whose character was very popular -- but a huge portion of the folks who are still fans of the show think his own opinions of the character (as stated and as written in a truly truly awful tie-in novel) don't match up remotely with the actual finished product.

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iczer6
2003-06-11 07:34 am UTC (link)

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<but [...] he's>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<<But he's not in a better position to evaluate what actually appeared on the screen-- he's in a worse one, because his opinion is tainted by what he knows/thinks the intent was.>>

True, but the man is entitled to his own opinion, and I don't think he should be dragged across the coals because he said something the fangirls didn't like.

Just because his take on the character doesn't match up with their take on the character doesn't mean he's evil or wrong.

And what the hell IS Blakes7 anyway?

Icz

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mpoetess
2003-06-11 08:02 am UTC (link)

True, but the man is entitled to his own opinion, and I don't think he should be dragged across the coals because he said something the fangirls didn't like.

No, I agree with you there. I don't think his opinion has any more relevance than mine or any other Buffy fan's in the balance of discussing the show -- but people acting like he's a terrible person and he's somehow betrayed them, are missing the point that he's just a guy with an opinion. Sure, I disagree with a lot of what he tends to say on some subjects (and I get annoyed when people who agree with him quote his opinion as if it is more 'correct' than anyone else's and that proves whatever their point might be) but he's not the antichrist. He's just a talented actor.

OTOH, if I can generally refer to, say, the author of the recent "Spike ruined BtVS" article on the Buzz website as an idiot (or say that his opinions are idiotic), I don't think any of the actors or writers or Joss Whedon himself are any more sacrosanct. If I can call the President an idiot (based on opinions of his that I disagree with) without being told I'm a horrible person, I should likewise be able to say it about an actor for similar reasons. I'm not likely to do so, and I'm not one of the people who's been trashing James Marsters for his remarks -- but I think the side of "You have no respect for the actors, shame on you, how dare you call him a moron" can fall on the wanky end of the scale too.

--

Blake's 7 is a British SF show that ran from 1979 to 1981, about a group of criminals (the title character being a political prisoner) who escape from a prison ship and end up alternately fighting the corrupt government (Think Trek's Federation gone evil with sexy accents and disturbing costumes) and running from it. Paul Darrow played Avon, a computer genius who was captured for trying to code the biggest bank robbery in history, basically. Big slash vibes between his character and the lead, though that's the center of another bit of fannish wank -- the actor is rabidly anti-slash about his character.

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iczer6
2003-06-11 08:17 am UTC (link)

/but I think the side of "You have no respect for the actors, shame on you, how dare you call him a moron" can fall on the wanky end of the scale too./

True. I'm not saying his word is law I just think since it's a show he himself is worked on for years that he might have some insight that a regular fan doesn't have. It's doesn't make him 'better'in any way.

And like you said when you get down he's just a cute guy with an opinion. You don't agree, fine, just say 'He so did not get it' and move on.

/Big slash vibes between his character and the lead, though that's the center of another bit of fannish wank -- the actor is rabidly anti-slash about his character./

I think that's wanky in of itself.

Icz

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diamonde
2003-06-11 09:13 am UTC (link)

I don't think his opinion has any more relevance than mine or any other Buffy fan's in the balance of discussing the show

Normally I'd agree with you, but Mr Marsters might be a special case since he and Joss have both said that a lot of Spike's character (as Joss wrote him, anyway) was based on James' worse traits/actions. But then, um, I'd have to be on his side just for the scary factor. Spike fascinates me as a character, and I like to play with him in my head, but if someone starts telling me what a great person he is I'm going to have to call the men in white coats on 'em.

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Blake's 7

karmakaze
2003-06-11 03:58 pm UTC (link)

Google directory of pages about it

Blake's 7 was a british series from, iirc, the late-80s. It ran for four years and had some very interesting characterization. It stands out from a lot of series SF in that it wasn't afraid to kill characters (Blake, the title character, dies at the end of season and more or less stays dead) -- there are always seven characters, but only two of them made it the whole way. Also, one of them was unapologetically amoral (and the show never felt the need to 'redeem' him) and another a total coward.

Particularly at the time, sf series tended to have black and white morality and white hat leads, so the show drew a pretty strong following just because it was refreshing and different. And Avon was really hot... :)

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	Re: Blake's 7 iczer6 2003-06-11 06:01 pm UTC (link)
	Sounds like a show I would like. Thanks. Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)

rhi_silverflame
2003-06-11 04:22 am UTC (link)

The icon speaks for itself. I love Buffy, but the fandom fucking scares me.

And I'm awaiting detailed reports from a friend of mine who went to the Moonlight Rising con this past weekend in New York, with Tony Head, Amber Benson, James C. Leary, and Adam Busch. From what she's told me so far, the Kitten Board people made absolute asses out of themselves all weekend trying to stalk Amber.

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	aruru 2003-06-11 06:13 am UTC (link)
	You wouldn't happen to be able to get your friend to post her accounts over at fw_offline, would you? ^_^; (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dreamtoday 2003-06-11 01:33 pm UTC (link)
	I suspect that James' own feelings about rape in general have affected the way he views the character. Yes, how unfortunate it is that James Masters thinks that rape is a Bad Thing and that attempted rapists are bad people. Any decent man knows that when a woman screams and pleads 'no' she really means 'take me now you hot stud'. sun (Reply to this)(Thread)

quinctia
2003-06-12 11:21 am UTC (link)

Well the...odd thing about the rape scene and the way it was placed at the end of the whole bizarre Buffy/Spike interaction...

The two of them beat each other up for fun. There were several times that she said 'no' and they farked and things were still happy. They basically were like a couple into BDSM that stupidly didn't have a safe word.

The scene itself had a little bit of complexity. Spike wasn't doing it out of aggression, like rape occurs many times. Due to the way things had worked out between him before, he wasn't actually going outside the boundaries of what had happened in the past. If the writers had intended for a straight-up rape is bad scene, they certainly did not end up with a well-written one that made their point.

It squicked me bunches because I was watching something gone horribly awry...Buffy was definitely resisting and in pain but Spike wasn't intending to cause her any.

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	sajasma 2003-06-12 09:56 pm UTC (link)
	but Spike wasn't intending to cause her any. Hmm, I still don't think that excuses the act of attempted rape itself. I applaud the fact that JM has a fairly realistic view on Spike (give or take a few arguable points), especially in the face of Scary Buffy Fans(tm). (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re:

quinctia
2003-06-13 06:20 am UTC (link)

Hmm, I still don't think that excuses the act of attempted rape itself.

That's why there are safe words. Then again, I was more bothered by the ambiguity in the scene there than if it had been a straight up rape attempt. See, I don't think Spike was wanting to rape her and that's where the morality of the character comes into question. Yeah, the character was not quite an antihero as a soulless vamp, my personal thought is maybe JM is going a little overboard on his interpretation because it's too much mental trouble to try to sort the situation in that eppy out.

If you want to see a cut-and-dried rape attempt on Buffy, look up Faith on Xander in season 3. That's the reason I still hate Faith's character.

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	sajasma 2003-06-13 08:57 am UTC (link)
	If you want to see a cut-and-dried rape attempt on Buffy, look up Faith on Xander in season 3. That's the reason I still hate Faith's character. Meh? Er, see, I never thought what happened between Faith and Xander was rape. Quick sex and then Faith throws him out right afterwards, but not rape. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: quinctia 2003-06-13 09:19 am UTC (link)
	Not that scene. The one after that where she tries to rape him and then tries to KILL him. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sajasma 2003-06-13 09:46 am UTC (link)
	Hmm...which one was that? clueless (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: quinctia 2003-06-13 10:18 am UTC (link)
	I don't know the ep title. It was fairly soon after she took his virginity, in the timeline. I only have the first Watcher's Guide, too. Sorry. ^^; (Reply to this)(Parent)

megolas
2003-06-13 02:02 pm UTC (link)

Oh man. I am a veteran of Buffy convention wanks. I go to most of the UK cons run by Starfury or Sector14 and nowadays, spend most of my time in the bar catching up on my sleep and talking to the like-mind folk that avoid the con talks like the plague.

It's scary in there. I have vivid memories of my first con, where I spent sometime curled in a ball everytime someone confused the actor for the character and asked stupid questions/ranted about something the character did/yadayadayada. Lather, rinse, repeat for most other cons.

That said, JM sure has changed since his first Con (which was also mine.)

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soulstar
2003-06-14 11:58 pm UTC (link)

Ah, see, that's why you're missing the part where most con talks aren't like that at all ;-) But daaaayumn, it's funny when you get those ones. *eg*

That said, JM sure has changed since his first Con (which was also mine.)

Wasn't N3K your first con, though? That was far from JM's first one, or even his first UK one.
His views on Spike do seem to have changed, though, which isn't surprising. I pretty much agree with what I've heard of his comments at that con. Newsflash, soulless Spike wasn't a cute fluffy misunderstood nice-guy. Duh. *rolls eyes*

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