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St. Ignatius of Antioch ([info]ignatius) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2005-06-16 06:20:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
"...unless it's an official tie-in novel."
Copied from [info]wank_report:

***Fanfic wank at Lee Goldberg's blog isn't exactly new, but there are some choice bits in this one.

"Fanfic is to writing what "Piss Christ" was to art." - Holly Lisle.

"...to be a writer - a REAL writer - one has to have the soul of a writer. And that particular soul understands in no uncertain terms that fanfic is soulless." - Paul Guyot.

"...if you engage in fanfic as a hobby, job, whatever, you are not a real writer. Because if you were - if you had inside you what a real writer does - you have no desire to engage in fanfic." - Paul Guyot.

"If people like Lee and Claire and myself are wrong - then why is there not ONE full-time writer who also engages in fanfic?" - Paul Guyot.

When presented with pro writers who also write fanfiction:
"POD or vanity? I'm asking cuz I don't know. And as soon as we hear from them, as opposed to someone dropping their name, I'm sure that will make things very entertaining around here." - Paul Guyot.

When told that these writers are real professional writers - of sci-fi:
"Let me ask Jocelyn's army: why do you think it is only authors who write in this particular genre that engage in fanfic? Why don't any "mainstream" writers do it? Just wonder what your opinion is on that." - Paul Guyot***
___
This lover-ly piece of wank also contains: MZB drama, many willfull misunderstandings, "How fanfic is like graffiti," and superfluous references to kiddie porn. Because it's not a discussion on fanfic without a mention of the kiddie porn!



Page 1 of 3
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(Post a new comment)


[info]sepiamagpie
2005-06-17 01:47 am UTC (link)
your html is buggered up.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ignatius, 2005-06-17 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2005-06-17 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2005-06-17 01:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ignatius, 2005-06-17 02:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2005-06-17 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2005-06-17 08:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2005-06-17 09:31 am UTC

dracothelizard
2005-06-17 01:47 am UTC (link)
Okay, so fanfic writers aren't real writers, AND sci-fi isn't a proper mainstream genre.

Who the fuck Paul Guyot anyway, I never heard of him.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2005-06-17 02:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2005-06-17 09:35 am UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2005-06-17 04:25 pm UTC
ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning
[info]pet
2005-06-17 01:53 am UTC (link)
Who's this Guyot fucktard, and if he's so fabulous and superior, why haven't I ever heard of him? And I was an English major, folks, and a truly avid reader, so, I really should at least recognize his name.

And science fiction isn't mainstream? Really?

Y'know, it's people like this that give literary types a bad name.

- Pet (who clearly does not have inside her "what a real writer does," whatever that is)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 02:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 02:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 02:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 02:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marylake, 2005-06-17 08:58 pm UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 02:02 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]ourself, 2005-06-17 02:05 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]chaimonkey, 2005-06-17 06:21 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]ourself, 2005-06-17 06:50 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]chaimonkey, 2005-06-17 07:00 am UTC
oh dear. - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 02:14 am UTC
Re: oh dear. - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 02:51 am UTC
Re: oh dear. - [info]telophase, 2005-06-17 02:54 am UTC
Re: oh dear. - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 03:32 am UTC
Re: oh dear. - [info]telophase, 2005-06-17 03:35 am UTC
Re: oh dear. - [info]ymfaery, 2005-06-17 01:11 pm UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]smo, 2005-06-17 04:08 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]mister_terrific, 2005-06-17 05:25 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]smo, 2005-06-17 05:26 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]pepperlandgirl4, 2005-06-17 08:18 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]chaimonkey, 2005-06-17 06:45 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 01:50 pm UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]workingslacker, 2005-06-17 07:40 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]pepperlandgirl4, 2005-06-17 08:19 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - dracothelizard, 2005-06-17 06:21 pm UTC
I may be about to say something stupid - [info]vergilsparda, 2005-06-18 12:36 am UTC
Re: ooooh, I do love the smell of pretention in the morning - [info]renata_hpjc, 2005-06-17 04:15 am UTC

[info]kadath
2005-06-17 01:54 am UTC (link)
Mmm, I love the smell of elitism in the morning.

(Reply to this)


[info]somnambulicious
2005-06-17 01:55 am UTC (link)
*blinks* As a fanfic writer, I'm supposed to be "emotionally involved" in the characters? Damn. And here I thought it was all about the porn for fun.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]willywanka, 2005-06-17 06:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vergilsparda, 2005-06-18 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tangentialone, 2005-06-18 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]somnambulicious, 2005-06-18 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tangentialone, 2005-06-18 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonspell, 2005-06-20 12:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tangentialone, 2005-06-21 05:25 am UTC

[info]teratologist
2005-06-17 01:58 am UTC (link)
Check out Holly Lisle proving that she doesn't know much, if anything, about fanfic OR modern photography in one go. Impressive.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]atalantapendrag, 2005-06-17 02:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2005-06-17 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rawles, 2005-06-17 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mariann, 2005-06-17 02:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2005-06-17 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daromaius, 2005-06-17 05:28 pm UTC
and how did Ms. Lisle get started?? - [info]txvoodoo, 2005-06-17 08:20 am UTC
Re: and how did Ms. Lisle get started?? - [info]honorh, 2005-06-17 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - ealusaid, 2005-06-17 08:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]threegoldfish, 2005-06-18 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]teratologist, 2005-06-18 04:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]teratologist, 2005-06-18 04:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]teratologist, 2005-06-18 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]teratologist, 2005-06-18 04:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deconcentrate, 2006-09-27 03:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]photosinensis, 2005-06-18 12:54 am UTC

[info]waltraute
2005-06-17 01:58 am UTC (link)
Well, Holly Lisle has never written a book I found compelling enough to keep reading, that's for sure.

Oh, Jocelyn. You try to fight the decent legal reasoning fight in vain.

(Reply to this)


[info]redjackcash
2005-06-17 02:03 am UTC (link)
...is it wrong that I sort of agree with him on certain points, wanky as he is with stating them? I do understand why he takes offense at that comment - someone suggesting they have a better grasp of a world he himself created is pompous. There are also fans who do all of the things he's stated - become obsessed and live in fantasy universes. But they are not every fan, either.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2005-06-17 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2005-06-17 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2005-06-17 09:26 am UTC
Mr. Guyot does not even play a writer on TV
[info]ourself
2005-06-17 02:04 am UTC (link)
*sporfle*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Mr. Guyot does not even play a writer on TV - [info]redjackcash, 2005-06-17 02:11 am UTC
Re: Mr. Guyot does not even play a writer on TV - [info]ourself, 2005-06-17 02:13 am UTC
Re: Mr. Guyot does not even play a writer on TV - [info]stinkwrinkle, 2005-06-17 05:42 pm UTC

[info]psychofangirl
2005-06-17 02:21 am UTC (link)
Well, the e-mail was stupid, but so is everyone else.

I like Holly Lisle just fine, but the "Piss Christ" analogy was a poor one given how much controverse "Piss Christ" created.

Wait a minute...

(Reply to this)


[info]aycelcus
2005-06-17 02:38 am UTC (link)
Fanfic is to writing what "Piss Christ" was to art. Though mostly without the sacrilege.

Oh Holly. Holly Holly Holly. No one has introduced you to Biblefic, have they? Let us stroll you down to the Pit, and let's see if we can't get you familiarized with it, hmmm? Maybe some Jesus/Judas slash to start? Side of Moses/Red Sea? Oooo, let's garnish it with a little Het Beastiality.... Eve/Snake. I bet you'd believe that one.

(Reply to this)


[info]rawles
2005-06-17 02:53 am UTC (link)
Whoa. I'm boggling at the amount of pretentious posturing going on over there. And the utter lack of logic.

"Fanficcers do not have the SOUL OF A WRITER because they are not CREATING their own worlds!"

"What about people who write media tie-ins and whatnot?"

"They have permission and are paid!"

"So...how exactly does having permission and being paid give something artistic merit that you claim it is intrinsically lacking?"

"YOU. JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. PLEBE!"


"No TRUE WRITER writes fanfiction!! No such creature exists!"

"What about this person and this person and this person who all publish original novels with real houses and still write fanfiction?"

"Well they won't come here and defend themselves against my absurd claims and thus the fact that they are published and still write fanfiction is irrelevant even though my entire point was that they couldn't do just that!"

"That doesn't make any sense."

"YOU. JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. PLEBE!"

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ignatius, 2005-06-17 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 03:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rawles, 2005-06-17 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grapefruitzzz, 2005-06-17 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ignatius, 2005-06-17 04:05 am UTC

[info]traceace
2005-06-17 03:04 am UTC (link)
I write both fanfiction and original stories (some of which have been published at least in my college's creative writing monthly book - it's a start, eh? ;))

I want to be a writer eventually when I get older.

I guess I should just give up ALL HOPE WITH MY DREAM OH NOES.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ignatius, 2005-06-17 03:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quantify, 2005-06-17 08:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daromaius, 2005-06-17 05:31 pm UTC

[info]ingrid
2005-06-17 03:07 am UTC (link)
if you had inside you what a real writer does

You'd be able to fertilize an entire planet's worth of tomatoes, I'm betting, if he's the "writer" we're talking about.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]indis_earfalas, 2005-06-17 03:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2005-06-17 12:12 pm UTC

[info]backfromspace
2005-06-17 03:10 am UTC (link)
Maybe it's because all science fiction and all fanfiction is based on saying "what if."

Besides, isn't all fiction basically just a massive AU fic of the real world anyway? All movies certainly are. "Okay, so it's just like the real world, except Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise are vampires."

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]grapefruitzzz, 2005-06-17 03:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bishounenhuntrs, 2005-06-17 05:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2005-06-19 04:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2005-06-17 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2005-06-17 11:36 pm UTC

[info]i_luv_fw
2005-06-17 03:13 am UTC (link)
This guy is a screenwriter. NOT a REAL writer, in my book. Y'know...someone who writes BOOKS?

Again, he takes someone else's character(s) and plays with them. How is that any different to a fanfic writer, except for that little fact of having permission and getting paid for it? It just shows that he knows someone in the biz who got him the job, that's all. Otherwise he'd just be another one of us, writing something belonging to someone else (either with or without permission) and NOT getting paid for it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]workingslacker, 2005-06-17 07:50 am UTC
Mr. Goldberg? Is that you? - [info]rogue, 2005-06-17 10:12 am UTC
Re: Mr. Goldberg? Is that you? - [info]i_luv_fw, 2005-06-17 06:22 pm UTC

[info]gorogoro
2005-06-17 03:21 am UTC (link)
Seriously, what is Claire's obsession with bringing kiddie porn into every unrelated discussion? You'd think she was looking to get recs or something. I love how she turns out to be, gasp, a BNF!

A short-lived and stellar career, unexpected and eye-opening, not one I sought, neither promoted. Perhaps true talent shone without need.

Lollerskates!

(Reply to this)


[info]threegoldfish
2005-06-17 03:22 am UTC (link)
and you know, I seem to recall Holly Lisle being involved with the Mercedes Lackey fanclub back in the day. There may have been fic involved, but I cant rememeber for sure since it's been like 12 years.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]aycelcus, 2005-06-17 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]azarias, 2005-06-17 06:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aycelcus, 2005-06-17 07:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]platedlizard, 2005-06-17 08:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]azarias, 2005-06-17 11:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]threegoldfish, 2005-06-17 04:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coyotegirl, 2005-06-21 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-17 04:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 07:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-06-17 07:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aycelcus, 2005-06-17 07:33 am UTC

[info]jo_russ
2005-06-17 03:26 am UTC (link)
Holly Lisle has to be one of the worst published writers out there. Go to her website some time and watch the poor fools worship her in the hopes that she'll throw a crumb of wisdom their way.

I've read fanfic better than her original work and I'll take "Piss Christ" over a painting of a bowl of fruit any day.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2005-06-17 07:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 07:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2005-06-17 07:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2005-06-17 04:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azarias, 2005-06-17 11:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]threegoldfish, 2005-06-17 04:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]airawyn, 2005-06-19 10:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2005-06-17 08:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 08:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]platedlizard, 2005-06-17 08:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]teleute, 2005-06-18 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]platedlizard, 2005-06-18 06:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymfaery, 2005-06-19 07:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rawles, 2005-06-17 10:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2005-06-17 04:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymfaery, 2005-06-17 11:53 pm UTC

(Deleted post)

(Deleted post)
Re: Soul food - [info]waltraute, 2005-06-17 04:25 am UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]skarrow, 2005-06-17 04:39 am UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 07:27 am UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: Soul food - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 08:37 am UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]yamashitaaki, 2005-06-17 06:20 am UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: Soul food - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 10:18 am UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2005-06-17 04:48 pm UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]bishounenhuntrs, 2005-06-17 05:46 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: Soul food - dracothelizard, 2005-06-17 06:30 pm UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]bishounenhuntrs, 2005-06-18 11:46 am UTC
Re: Soul food - [info]writes, 2005-06-18 08:45 am UTC

[info]bunny
2005-06-17 03:32 am UTC (link)
"If people like Lee and Claire and myself are wrong - then why is there not ONE full-time writer who also engages in fanfic?" - Paul Guyot.

Hm, let me introduce:

W. Shakespeare. - Never thought up an original story on his own and his OCs were limited to supporting players. Also very prolific RPFer.

J. Milton - The original Bible ficcer.

Dante A. - RPFer who went to Hell and back for his art.

G.B. Shaw - Greek myths ficcer. His work has been labelled AU.

C.S. Lewis - decided to tell Apuleius' Cupid and Psyche from the point of view of the evil sister.

C. Marlowe and J.W. Goethe - competing writers in the Doctor Faustus fandom. Marlowe's version is a bit lame, but Goethe's sequel totally sucked.

Brothers Grimm - worse plagiarisers than Cassie Claire. But even more famous than her.

And so on and so on.

Paul Guyot - REAL writer!1!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]grapefruitzzz, 2005-06-17 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2005-06-17 04:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ignatius, 2005-06-17 04:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pet, 2005-06-17 04:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bunny, 2005-06-17 04:52 am UTC
(no subject) - orangutan, 2005-06-17 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ourself, 2005-06-17 05:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]atalantapendrag, 2005-06-17 08:16 am UTC
wait, wait, wait - [info]pepperlandgirl4, 2005-06-17 08:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2005-06-17 10:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2005-06-17 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]photosinensis, 2005-06-18 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2005-06-18 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]photosinensis, 2005-12-13 12:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2005-12-13 07:31 pm UTC
Don't forget! - [info]ruaki, 2005-06-17 11:31 am UTC
Re: Don't forget! - [info]pepperlandgirl4, 2005-06-17 12:38 pm UTC
Re: Don't forget! - [info]ruaki, 2005-06-18 06:57 am UTC
Re: Don't forget! - [info]pepperlandgirl4, 2005-06-17 12:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2005-06-17 12:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kalindi, 2005-06-17 12:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stinkwrinkle, 2005-06-17 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mydemand, 2005-06-19 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merylinda, 2005-06-17 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - soula, 2005-06-18 07:26 am UTC

[info]grapefruitzzz
2005-06-17 03:38 am UTC (link)
Someone should ask this loser whether Shakespeare was a soulless genre writer, because it's pretty easy to argue that he mostly wrote fanfic. Also Milton, Virgil and Dante (although that's more an AU hetfic)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2005-06-17 06:05 am UTC

[info]drworm
2005-06-17 03:44 am UTC (link)
I'm not a real writer! I'm a fake writer! OMG, Paul Guyot thinks I'm a poser, whatever shall I do? My life is so over now. *sob*

Ah, hell. Lucky me that I don't give a damn whether any of my original stuff ever gets published or not.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sennet, 2005-06-17 10:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daromaius, 2005-06-17 06:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]drworm, 2005-06-17 09:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2005-06-17 04:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]drworm, 2005-06-17 09:24 pm UTC

[info]jess_d_ripper
2005-06-17 03:52 am UTC (link)
Help me Fandom Wank, how can I gain the SOUL of a WRITER? Kill one and consume his heart? Or can I just cut his head off?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]gorogoro, 2005-06-17 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ourself, 2005-06-17 05:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2005-06-17 06:15 am UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2005-06-17 06:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2005-06-18 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2005-06-18 03:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2005-06-18 03:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]michmatch, 2005-06-18 11:09 am UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2005-06-18 01:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2005-06-17 06:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2005-06-17 08:48 am UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2005-06-17 06:33 pm UTC

[info]erik
2005-06-17 03:59 am UTC (link)
I want to kiss whoever mentioned Timothy Zahn and the Star Wars EU.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chash, 2005-06-17 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iris, 2005-06-17 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chash, 2005-06-17 05:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-06-17 06:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chash, 2005-06-17 06:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]azarias, 2005-06-17 11:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2005-06-17 03:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]non_horation, 2005-06-17 07:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]warrioreowyn, 2007-01-28 09:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]non_horation, 2005-06-17 07:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erik, 2005-06-17 07:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]non_horation, 2005-06-17 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]valarltd, 2005-06-18 08:43 am UTC



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