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NM (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} narcissam) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} fandom_wank,@ 2005-08-05 12:47:00 |
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Hermionepotter.net: HBP the H/Hr way
Sorry folks. I've got more HP shipping wank for your delectation.
Hermionepotter.net announced after HBP it was going to put together an H/Hr version of Book VI. I thought they meant an H/Hr fanfic, and that seemed well within their rights.
What they've really done is put most of the text of HBP up on their website, changing a few sentences and paragraphs. For instance, substituting Hermione for Ginny. To stave off questions of plagiarism and piracy, the site owner Caina insists it's a "parody."
Reaction on the HMS Harmony forums is positive, but saner minds on Portkey question the legality of the project.
Shikamaru: Is it okay to just write up all those chapters about Dumbledore, Harry, Merope, The Guants, and Riddle's history and just put them on the internet (since they have no real changes)?
Caina: I hope so! If not...I don't know. I've got here as the HBP so... I think it would ruin the effect to just post the shipping parts. It would look stupid. But if JK's people tell me to take the story down I will without hesitation. I don't think JK would care, really. She'd probably just laugh, throw an insult or two my way, and then blow me off along with the rest of Harmony. I mean, she's done that once before after all...
and
I had a lawyer tell me that you can either post all of something or none of it. I've got a disclaimer on the story, and if that turns out not to be enough I'll quickly take it down and have it available by request only. I hope it's allowed to stay up. I mean, I don't want to get into trouble, but I do want H/Hr shippers to have this. Besides, millions of people have bought the book already, and millions more will continue to buy it even though pirated versions can be easily downloaded off the 'net.
Phoenix Farenheit's original post is apparently deleted, but then s/he posts again:
I just wanted to say, caina, that I wasn't trolling and I am ... er, was, a H/Hr shipper. But I know when enough is enough and I can let things go pretty easily. I think all sides are taking this whole shipping thing way too far, especially after the fact, and some of the most disturbing things I've seen are coming from Harmony. Sure, some Herons and Chocos are being jerks about it, but most of them are surprisingly calm.
At first, I was disappointed as well, but I never read the books for romance or put all that much thought in to it. I've spent a lot of time hoping the books wouldn't go too heavy on romance. I got enough problems of my own, thanks, without having to read about fictional ones. Besides, there's much more interesting stuff going on than who is dating whom and why. Snape's entire character comes to mind ...
I guess it just boils down to the fact that I'm overly sensitive about this type of thing. Fanfiction is great and all. I read it every once in a while. It's cool that it borrows some stuff from the stories, but most of it is completely made up, off-the-wall and totally seperate. But rewriting just about the whole book to change the shipping gets to me. Like, if someone bought one of my paintings, decided they didn't like it, and painted over it, I'd be really hurt and angry, since they should have known what they were buying and liked it for what it was, not what they wanted it to be.
Also, I have a hard time believing it's so important to so many people. Don't get me wrong; fandom is good fun and all, but you people are intimidating in your fanaticism. I like simplicity, nice clean lines, and to me, Harry and Hermione seemed so fluid and seamless, so natural. It was the most, pardon me, harmonious solution. But apparently I was wrong and that's no one's fault but my own. What was the point in all that rambling, you ask? I dunno. I've already forgot. Nighty-night!
Caina: You seem to be a living contradiction. You're NOT letting this go at all. You claim not to take this seriously, to be so tolerant in other words, yet you are clearly allowing something like this to get you extremely upset, and you come here and flame me for what I'm doing. Like I said on the site, you don't HAVE to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, and if you don't like it, don't go back to my website, don't come back to this thread, and don't ever read another word of the Harmony HBP. I neither need nor want your appoval, I hope you understand that.
If someone were to take one of your paintings and paint over it, then you should look at what they've done as a chance to see your idea from THEIR point of view. Also, have you ever heard the addage "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"? Obviously I care enough about the HP universe to put this much thought and effort into it. Thousands of JKs fans were hurt by what she did, and I'm one of them. This version of HBP is for those of us who have a different spin on her world. It was never intended as a slap to JK's face and I believe she would be able to see that, even if you can't.
You've abandoned ship, that's your right, but why waste your time flaming your former shipmates? Makes you come off as a jerk.
myhrlyn: I know you've taken a lot of heat, but I thought some of PhoenixFarenheit's arguments weren't really flaming. But were they bitter? Oh, sure. But a lot of us are bitter, nowadays. And as much as I don't care for the pessimists on this board, I always thought of PK as one of the most open-minded boards in the HP fandom. Many Herons are here, and though they might incite some heated arguments, it's all in the spirit of good debate. I wouldn't tell anyone to go away - but then again, I'm not the maintainer of this site.
As for one of your paintings, PhoenixFarenheit, I can totally understand your POV. I would be upset, for instance, if someone took one of my folk song lyrics, and suddenly turned it into death metal by yelling "DIE DIE DIE" every three seconds to head-banging. But the difference is, actually, that one has paid for a product, and one has stolen it. If someone bought one of your paintings, it no longer belongs to you. They take it home - they decide they don't like all the green, or blue, or whatever, and paint over it. Yes, distressing. That was a piece of you. But your part is finished, and you sold it. It no longer belongs to you. See what I'm saying? Now - if your painting were in a gallery, and someone barged in, stole it, and decimated it, I could completely understand your argument. But when I bought my copy of HBP, I, as the reader, brought that story to life. I don't really much care for it. It is really out of Rowling's hands what a fan of hers does and thinks of the book. I don't think an AU book 6 is really out-of-bounds. Especially since there is a disclaimer on the site that says it isn't the real HBP.
Rowling can feel hurt and insulted. But as an artist, she should also know how to take criticism. It kinda comes with the job. How many times have I been reduced to tears over a criticism of my own work? Couldn't even begin to tell you. But that's just the way it is.
stanJust nitpicking, but this is not so. The author retains IP rights over the product. A reader who bought the book only bought so much paper and right of access to the information written there. He has no right, for example, to copy, or alter, or re-publush the contents (see one of the front pages of any book). Even to make, say, a movie, you need a written permission and pay royalties. In short, buyers of the book do not buy the rights on the content of the book.
Disclaimer does not help much, because with or without it, you can not have more than so many words (250, I think) taken verbatum. Any book published after, I think, 1930 (have to check, some after 1950), is out of bounds. All disclaimer does is claiming openly that this is breaking the law. Any alteration of author's text without written permission is illegal. I think that consulting a good lawer is a great idea and would help to avoid much of unnecessary trouble.
rodrigo: i dissagree wirth you there.
it is a famous legal decision on the US highsupreme court, where Larry flint was sued by a religius group that made fun of thier leader when larry flint started his magasine penthouse.
where parody was removed from the legal rights in us federal copyrights laws in that matter.
one has the right by us law and deciocion by the US high supreme court to make as you wish as long as one does not make any profit out of it, and state clearly it is parody and one does not make any money.
To make it easy, so long as she states that it is parody and no profit she is okey.
becouse no legal system in the US will go against a ruling in the US highsupreme court.
they can always try.
And the US has not signed the Bern agree ment, they went thier own ways as usual with federal laws inthat matter.
Swedish highsupreme court has a similar verdict, that allows parody to be removed from "varumärkets lagen" that is names,loation,titel ans so on in a registerd trademark products as movies,books and toys and Bern agreement is not valid so long as you say it is parody and does not make any profit.
you can get away with alot if you handke the legal issues right.
The European high supreme court is still investigatatin it, they have been doing it since 1995 and they still haven´t decided if they are gona make it in the EU laws and constetution or let the member states decide for them self how they want to handle it.
you can always move your site to a swedish server, and they can´t touch you with DMCA,Bern,Varumärkeslagen, or the european hich supreme court that decides EU legislation for it´s member state.
American law is not even worth the piece of paper and they still threaten websites with american federal laws and legal threats outside US territory.
they won´t be able to touch your site or it´s contests becouse they have no legal jurdisction as far as the server and data. if it is on swedish soil.
don´t you all love the law.
why i know so about this things, i run a bittorrent site with a couple of frineds so we deal with lawers across the "pond" as we call they come with legal threats regulary, let´s say that they have not stopped us in many years.
and we never shut down torrent file in our history.
beoucse they can´t, we have even reported a law firm in the US to the thier legal bar for legal threats that was over the top.
if you start to have problems with layers and want to save your self from alot of legal issues and US federal law in copywright and use the Bern agreement, go to sweden,finland, denmark,germany, dutch, rumainia is a good country too.
i am currently cheicking out vietnam laws in that area look good to me so far.
and if you want to even post the entire book if you so wish for free download.
you can rent server space in a small island called Nuie, they have such laws in copyrights that is so free and you can do what ever you want, and US law can´t get to you at all.
that´s where sualy more "illegal" ###### sites are located and data is stored there.
they have very liberal and free laws regarding this matters.
but you must store the data there, not on US terroritory.
I like US lawers, they think that theier DMCA is universal.
i always laugh my head of when i get a letter from them.
but i like a good letter isted of of a e-mai.l
greetings from rodrigo.
stan: Rodrigo, you are right about the parody ONLY if it is in general a new text, based on the events described on the parodied book. If it is taking the original text verbatum, for the major part of it, it is NOT legal, for profit or not. Yes, there are sites that contain illegal material, including the sited with downloadable "HBP". That's just it, illegal sites, that are not yet caught. It does not make it right.
rodrigo: I agree with you there, but it is not illegal on the small lslands state on Oceanica.
there are bunch of small countrys there that are islands and Nuine, Pakistan or some of the old russain states that brooke loose afte the 1990:s.
and vietnam as i think so far.
so long as the data and server is there.
they can´t be touched, the can threaten with all they want becouse that can´t touch you legally in any way.
One is not stupid enough to put HBP in full verision on european or US soil. they will shut you down so fast and make you pay hard.
only a idiot would do that, but if one knows how to bypass it.
let´s say the world is open and one can make a website about anything and get away with it, and they can´t touch you.
and one can even earn a little money on it too.
i love the law, it is a great friend if you know how to use it.
greetings from rodrigo.
ETA: Bahleeted! Caina took fright and took down her 'fic'. There are some hilarious c&ps of the original bits she wrote/changes she made in the comments of this entry, though. Particularly in this thread. And there's a growing collection of favourite quotes on Page Two.
ETA 2: Caina promises on Portkey that this is not the end of her version of HBP: "Oh, I'll find a way. Mark my words, it may not have my name on it, but it WILL see the light of day. Someday. Legal or not."
ETA 3: Caina updates her site with the invitation "You have an open invitation to prove your hypocracy. I won't try to stop you. This way the next time you call a Harmonian 'overemotional' or 'foolish' or 'militant', me and my fellow shippers can point to this board and remind you that it goes both ways."
Sorry folks. I've got more HP shipping wank for your delectation.
Hermionepotter.net announced after HBP it was going to put together an H/Hr version of Book VI. I thought they meant an H/Hr fanfic, and that seemed well within their rights.
What they've really done is put most of the text of HBP up on their website, changing a few sentences and paragraphs. For instance, substituting Hermione for Ginny. To stave off questions of plagiarism and piracy, the site owner Caina insists it's a "parody."
Reaction on the HMS Harmony forums is positive, but saner minds on Portkey question the legality of the project.
Shikamaru: Is it okay to just write up all those chapters about Dumbledore, Harry, Merope, The Guants, and Riddle's history and just put them on the internet (since they have no real changes)?
Caina: I hope so! If not...I don't know. I've got here as the HBP so... I think it would ruin the effect to just post the shipping parts. It would look stupid. But if JK's people tell me to take the story down I will without hesitation. I don't think JK would care, really. She'd probably just laugh, throw an insult or two my way, and then blow me off along with the rest of Harmony. I mean, she's done that once before after all...
and
I had a lawyer tell me that you can either post all of something or none of it. I've got a disclaimer on the story, and if that turns out not to be enough I'll quickly take it down and have it available by request only. I hope it's allowed to stay up. I mean, I don't want to get into trouble, but I do want H/Hr shippers to have this. Besides, millions of people have bought the book already, and millions more will continue to buy it even though pirated versions can be easily downloaded off the 'net.
Phoenix Farenheit's original post is apparently deleted, but then s/he posts again:
I just wanted to say, caina, that I wasn't trolling and I am ... er, was, a H/Hr shipper. But I know when enough is enough and I can let things go pretty easily. I think all sides are taking this whole shipping thing way too far, especially after the fact, and some of the most disturbing things I've seen are coming from Harmony. Sure, some Herons and Chocos are being jerks about it, but most of them are surprisingly calm.
At first, I was disappointed as well, but I never read the books for romance or put all that much thought in to it. I've spent a lot of time hoping the books wouldn't go too heavy on romance. I got enough problems of my own, thanks, without having to read about fictional ones. Besides, there's much more interesting stuff going on than who is dating whom and why. Snape's entire character comes to mind ...
I guess it just boils down to the fact that I'm overly sensitive about this type of thing. Fanfiction is great and all. I read it every once in a while. It's cool that it borrows some stuff from the stories, but most of it is completely made up, off-the-wall and totally seperate. But rewriting just about the whole book to change the shipping gets to me. Like, if someone bought one of my paintings, decided they didn't like it, and painted over it, I'd be really hurt and angry, since they should have known what they were buying and liked it for what it was, not what they wanted it to be.
Also, I have a hard time believing it's so important to so many people. Don't get me wrong; fandom is good fun and all, but you people are intimidating in your fanaticism. I like simplicity, nice clean lines, and to me, Harry and Hermione seemed so fluid and seamless, so natural. It was the most, pardon me, harmonious solution. But apparently I was wrong and that's no one's fault but my own. What was the point in all that rambling, you ask? I dunno. I've already forgot. Nighty-night!
Caina: You seem to be a living contradiction. You're NOT letting this go at all. You claim not to take this seriously, to be so tolerant in other words, yet you are clearly allowing something like this to get you extremely upset, and you come here and flame me for what I'm doing. Like I said on the site, you don't HAVE to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, and if you don't like it, don't go back to my website, don't come back to this thread, and don't ever read another word of the Harmony HBP. I neither need nor want your appoval, I hope you understand that.
If someone were to take one of your paintings and paint over it, then you should look at what they've done as a chance to see your idea from THEIR point of view. Also, have you ever heard the addage "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"? Obviously I care enough about the HP universe to put this much thought and effort into it. Thousands of JKs fans were hurt by what she did, and I'm one of them. This version of HBP is for those of us who have a different spin on her world. It was never intended as a slap to JK's face and I believe she would be able to see that, even if you can't.
You've abandoned ship, that's your right, but why waste your time flaming your former shipmates? Makes you come off as a jerk.
myhrlyn: I know you've taken a lot of heat, but I thought some of PhoenixFarenheit's arguments weren't really flaming. But were they bitter? Oh, sure. But a lot of us are bitter, nowadays. And as much as I don't care for the pessimists on this board, I always thought of PK as one of the most open-minded boards in the HP fandom. Many Herons are here, and though they might incite some heated arguments, it's all in the spirit of good debate. I wouldn't tell anyone to go away - but then again, I'm not the maintainer of this site.
As for one of your paintings, PhoenixFarenheit, I can totally understand your POV. I would be upset, for instance, if someone took one of my folk song lyrics, and suddenly turned it into death metal by yelling "DIE DIE DIE" every three seconds to head-banging. But the difference is, actually, that one has paid for a product, and one has stolen it. If someone bought one of your paintings, it no longer belongs to you. They take it home - they decide they don't like all the green, or blue, or whatever, and paint over it. Yes, distressing. That was a piece of you. But your part is finished, and you sold it. It no longer belongs to you. See what I'm saying? Now - if your painting were in a gallery, and someone barged in, stole it, and decimated it, I could completely understand your argument. But when I bought my copy of HBP, I, as the reader, brought that story to life. I don't really much care for it. It is really out of Rowling's hands what a fan of hers does and thinks of the book. I don't think an AU book 6 is really out-of-bounds. Especially since there is a disclaimer on the site that says it isn't the real HBP.
Rowling can feel hurt and insulted. But as an artist, she should also know how to take criticism. It kinda comes with the job. How many times have I been reduced to tears over a criticism of my own work? Couldn't even begin to tell you. But that's just the way it is.
stanJust nitpicking, but this is not so. The author retains IP rights over the product. A reader who bought the book only bought so much paper and right of access to the information written there. He has no right, for example, to copy, or alter, or re-publush the contents (see one of the front pages of any book). Even to make, say, a movie, you need a written permission and pay royalties. In short, buyers of the book do not buy the rights on the content of the book.
Disclaimer does not help much, because with or without it, you can not have more than so many words (250, I think) taken verbatum. Any book published after, I think, 1930 (have to check, some after 1950), is out of bounds. All disclaimer does is claiming openly that this is breaking the law. Any alteration of author's text without written permission is illegal. I think that consulting a good lawer is a great idea and would help to avoid much of unnecessary trouble.
rodrigo: i dissagree wirth you there.
it is a famous legal decision on the US highsupreme court, where Larry flint was sued by a religius group that made fun of thier leader when larry flint started his magasine penthouse.
where parody was removed from the legal rights in us federal copyrights laws in that matter.
one has the right by us law and deciocion by the US high supreme court to make as you wish as long as one does not make any profit out of it, and state clearly it is parody and one does not make any money.
To make it easy, so long as she states that it is parody and no profit she is okey.
becouse no legal system in the US will go against a ruling in the US highsupreme court.
they can always try.
And the US has not signed the Bern agree ment, they went thier own ways as usual with federal laws inthat matter.
Swedish highsupreme court has a similar verdict, that allows parody to be removed from "varumärkets lagen" that is names,loation,titel ans so on in a registerd trademark products as movies,books and toys and Bern agreement is not valid so long as you say it is parody and does not make any profit.
you can get away with alot if you handke the legal issues right.
The European high supreme court is still investigatatin it, they have been doing it since 1995 and they still haven´t decided if they are gona make it in the EU laws and constetution or let the member states decide for them self how they want to handle it.
you can always move your site to a swedish server, and they can´t touch you with DMCA,Bern,Varumärkeslagen, or the european hich supreme court that decides EU legislation for it´s member state.
American law is not even worth the piece of paper and they still threaten websites with american federal laws and legal threats outside US territory.
they won´t be able to touch your site or it´s contests becouse they have no legal jurdisction as far as the server and data. if it is on swedish soil.
don´t you all love the law.
why i know so about this things, i run a bittorrent site with a couple of frineds so we deal with lawers across the "pond" as we call they come with legal threats regulary, let´s say that they have not stopped us in many years.
and we never shut down torrent file in our history.
beoucse they can´t, we have even reported a law firm in the US to the thier legal bar for legal threats that was over the top.
if you start to have problems with layers and want to save your self from alot of legal issues and US federal law in copywright and use the Bern agreement, go to sweden,finland, denmark,germany, dutch, rumainia is a good country too.
i am currently cheicking out vietnam laws in that area look good to me so far.
and if you want to even post the entire book if you so wish for free download.
you can rent server space in a small island called Nuie, they have such laws in copyrights that is so free and you can do what ever you want, and US law can´t get to you at all.
that´s where sualy more "illegal" ###### sites are located and data is stored there.
they have very liberal and free laws regarding this matters.
but you must store the data there, not on US terroritory.
I like US lawers, they think that theier DMCA is universal.
i always laugh my head of when i get a letter from them.
but i like a good letter isted of of a e-mai.l
greetings from rodrigo.
stan: Rodrigo, you are right about the parody ONLY if it is in general a new text, based on the events described on the parodied book. If it is taking the original text verbatum, for the major part of it, it is NOT legal, for profit or not. Yes, there are sites that contain illegal material, including the sited with downloadable "HBP". That's just it, illegal sites, that are not yet caught. It does not make it right.
rodrigo: I agree with you there, but it is not illegal on the small lslands state on Oceanica.
there are bunch of small countrys there that are islands and Nuine, Pakistan or some of the old russain states that brooke loose afte the 1990:s.
and vietnam as i think so far.
so long as the data and server is there.
they can´t be touched, the can threaten with all they want becouse that can´t touch you legally in any way.
One is not stupid enough to put HBP in full verision on european or US soil. they will shut you down so fast and make you pay hard.
only a idiot would do that, but if one knows how to bypass it.
let´s say the world is open and one can make a website about anything and get away with it, and they can´t touch you.
and one can even earn a little money on it too.
i love the law, it is a great friend if you know how to use it.
greetings from rodrigo.
ETA: Bahleeted! Caina took fright and took down her 'fic'. There are some hilarious c&ps of the original bits she wrote/changes she made in the comments of this entry, though. Particularly in this thread. And there's a growing collection of favourite quotes on Page Two.
ETA 2: Caina promises on Portkey that this is not the end of her version of HBP: "Oh, I'll find a way. Mark my words, it may not have my name on it, but it WILL see the light of day. Someday. Legal or not."
ETA 3: Caina updates her site with the invitation "You have an open invitation to prove your hypocracy. I won't try to stop you. This way the next time you call a Harmonian 'overemotional' or 'foolish' or 'militant', me and my fellow shippers can point to this board and remind you that it goes both ways."
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