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There (tsuzukilove) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2005-08-27 15:21:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Rape wank at fanficrants, and for once I'm not to blame.

I made a post at fanficrants. Now, this may seem wanky, but the intent of my post was to rant about rape being badly portrayed in serious angst fics and to offer some advice for writers writing rape and incest.


The original, unedited post is HERE.


[info]gynocrat_rex shows up and posts a comment that, while somewhat bitter, is essentially harmless despite being a bit misguided (i.e. I wasn't attacking rape fantasy, I was attacking wangst fic in the rant). Then, we get WANK!  THIS is why I hate having wankers for best friends sometimes, and I'm seriously thinking of defriending her. I love her, but she makes my brain go hurty so much.


Then, of course, just as that wank finally begins to go limp, [info]heddychan has to pop in with some of her own,  including calling [info]lushdesolation "an immature little cunt."


And we're off to the races again!


*headdesks*


*looks for some hot yaoi porn to ease the pain*


 



(Post a new comment)


[info]semtex
2005-08-28 01:50 am UTC (link)
Rapefic wank AND chanfic wank within the same week...Fandom Wank, how I have missed thee.
*settles back with popcorn*
.
.
Isn't this better suited for [info]i_wank, though♥?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Actually not, IMHO. . .
tsuzukilove
2005-08-28 01:52 am UTC (link)
Because in the OP, I wasn't intending to wank. I was intending to rant, and I didn't get involved in the wank that sprang up in my thread.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Actually not, IMHO. . . - [info]visp, 2005-08-29 07:50 am UTC
Re: Actually not, IMHO. . . - tsuzukilove, 2005-08-29 07:56 am UTC
Re: Actually not, IMHO. . . - tsuzukilove, 2005-08-29 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]charmian, 2005-08-28 10:53 am UTC

[info]writinchica2k
2005-08-28 01:59 am UTC (link)
*sigh* Rape-fic rants, whether well-done or poorly (yours was the former, BTW), ALWAYS bring the wank to the yard. It's some sort of inevitability (if Jurisimprudence doesn't already say something about this, it should be). I just despise rapefic (bad triggers on my part and most of the time stupid use of plot device on the writer's part) and stay out of arguments like those altogether cuz I know I'm gonna be bitching.

I think fanficrants SERIOUSLY needs to edit their "hot button topics" list in the userinfo. Or at least ban the subject altogether.

And heddychaa, STFU.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]typofrog, 2005-08-28 07:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 07:49 pm UTC

[info]senor_pinata
2005-08-28 02:05 am UTC (link)
Take it to [info]i_wank, cuz this ain't exactly an unbiased post.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shakeandbake, 2005-08-28 02:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shakeandbake, 2005-08-28 03:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 03:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shakeandbake, 2005-08-28 07:03 am UTC

dracothelizard
2005-08-28 02:31 am UTC (link)
Gee, I never expected a rant about rapefic to start wank.

You can mean it as well as you did, but there will always be someone going 'Rape fantasies are sick!' and someone else going 'Nuh uh!' until they start calling each other names.

(Reply to this)


[info]carlanime
2005-08-28 02:42 am UTC (link)
I wasn't attacking rape fantasy, I was attacking wangst fic in the rant).

See, it's pretty difficult to tell that when the rant includes this:

My issues are not with rape/sexual abuse in yaoi or even with described rapes/abuse incidents in stories, but with the way it is handled and written, especially after the fact. I've never been raped, molested, involved in incest, or otherwise sexually abused, but I actually bothered to research the crimes and what happens to victims somewhat before I decided that I wanted to actually write it...

Because that makes it sound as if you want all rape in fanfiction to be a realistic portrayal of rape, which is pretty far removed from rape fantasies. Rape fantasies are pretty much guaranteed to be unrealistic.

(Reply to this)


[info]roni_maxwell
2005-08-28 02:52 am UTC (link)
It's never really a wank until name-calling is involved, now is it?

Fanficrants needs a "Days since we've been on Fandom_Wank" counter, just like that one FMA community had.

of course, it would never go higher then 6 days.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 02:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 03:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 03:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 04:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 04:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yubsie, 2005-08-28 03:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 03:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2005-08-28 04:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2005-08-28 05:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 06:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2005-08-28 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roni_maxwell, 2005-08-28 07:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2005-08-28 11:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ravenclaw_devi, 2005-08-29 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yubsie, 2005-08-29 03:45 pm UTC

[info]snarky_bix
2005-08-28 02:55 am UTC (link)
THIS is why I hate having wankers for best friends sometimes, and I'm seriously thinking of defriending her. I love her, but she makes my brain go hurty so much.

You know, you and Ms. Shadsie redefine "Fairweather Johnson" in your relationship. Seriously, don't stop being friends, because you're so perfectly suited for one another.

My $0.02 is that ranting about rapefic is like pissing in the wind, regardless of the rightness or wrongness of it, because ppl will never settle the "you sick fuck" vs. "it's only a story and anything goes" argument. I'm not sure that will ever find a satisfactory resolution. But hey, if it keeps you busy...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2005-08-28 03:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarky_bix, 2005-08-28 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]speshulduck, 2005-08-28 03:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 03:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angstymcgoth, 2005-08-28 05:08 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 08:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarky_bix, 2005-08-28 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]piratelair, 2005-08-28 03:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 04:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]speshulduck, 2005-08-28 04:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 05:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]speshulduck, 2005-08-28 05:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 08:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]piratelair, 2005-08-28 07:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 08:28 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2005-08-28 03:35 am UTC (link)
So, you pick one of the most wank-generating topics to rant about, your friends show up on fanficrants all upset and wanky (and you must have known they'd feel this way about this, since they're your friends and all), and you then gleefully report the whole thing to f_w. Right. Somehow, I doubt you'll be the one doing the defriending here.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

You got it a touch wrong... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 04:00 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 04:01 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]tangentialone, 2005-08-28 04:31 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 04:41 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]tangentialone, 2005-08-28 05:00 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 05:12 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]tangentialone, 2005-08-28 05:18 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 05:22 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]tangentialone, 2005-08-28 05:30 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]tangentialone, 2005-08-28 05:19 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 07:20 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 07:35 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 07:56 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:00 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:43 am UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 08:14 pm UTC
Re: You got it a touch wrong... - [info]mistressrenet, 2005-08-28 08:26 pm UTC

[info]adora_spintriae
2005-08-28 03:58 am UTC (link)
Take it to [info]i_wank, sweetums. Your OP is enough to land your arse there faster than you say say "Bitch please".

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-29 12:15 pm UTC

[info]iczer6
2005-08-28 04:10 am UTC (link)
Is it bad that after reading this:

People have the right to their rape fantasies. I have the right to call them sick and to be quite afraid of them.

I want to taunt this person with my collection of Tori Maia manga while saying 'BOO!'?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 07:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]uiggu, 2005-09-02 12:13 pm UTC

[info]favyan
2005-08-28 05:44 am UTC (link)
tl;dr

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 09:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kats_kradle, 2005-08-28 12:41 pm UTC

ataniell93
2005-08-28 06:45 am UTC (link)
You know, everyone knows that rape doesn't lead to true love in real life. I don't think there is a really big problem with people who write fic being confused about this. If someone calls me up and says, "I was raped," I don't start trying to figure out what they want me to give them at their wedding shower.

But rape does, frequently, lead to true love in yaoi manga. It's a convention of the genre. Yaoi manga is full of guys who rape little crying boys (even if they are supposed to be 30 year old men, they look like little boys once they're nekkid) and then acquire their undying love.

(This is why I tend to prefer slash.)

Complaining about it happening in fics just makes you look stupid. I mean, I'd really like to see you attempt to explain this to Ozaki Minami (Zetsuai, Bronze).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 07:01 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 07:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2005-08-28 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 07:16 am UTC
See my response to sarajayechan... - ataniell93, 2005-08-28 08:18 am UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:35 am UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - ataniell93, 2005-08-28 08:38 am UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 07:52 pm UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - [info]megmurry, 2005-08-28 07:36 pm UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:05 pm UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - (Anonymous), 2005-08-29 12:27 pm UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-29 05:40 pm UTC
Re: See my response to sarajayechan... - [info]pyratejenni, 2005-08-30 06:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2005-08-28 07:55 am UTC
I said it was A convention of yaoi manga, not the ONLY convention of yaoi manga... - ataniell93, 2005-08-28 08:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brick_me, 2005-08-28 04:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 09:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]charmian, 2005-08-28 10:49 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2005-08-28 11:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]charmian, 2005-08-29 01:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2005-08-28 06:15 pm UTC

[info]sarajayechan
2005-08-28 07:53 am UTC (link)
Every time you wank about yaoi and rape in the same wank, Spanky Ham takes a piss on your sofa.

Please think of your sofa. Pig urine is probably a bitch to clean up.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 07:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2005-08-28 07:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 09:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 09:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleo_lassen, 2005-08-28 09:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]speshulduck, 2005-08-28 09:51 am UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nima_skysong, 2005-08-28 08:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 09:04 pm UTC

[info]croik
2005-08-28 05:26 pm UTC (link)
Man, and I just ranted about this topic in my LJ 'cause of the new Yaoi manga JAZZ coming out. Small internet~

(Reply to this)


[info]winterfalls
2005-08-28 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Somewhere out there, Jesus is missing a cross.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 07:46 pm UTC

[info]pyratejenni
2005-08-28 07:18 pm UTC (link)
When did the term "rapefics" come to mean fanfiction that use rape as a Twu Wub device? I thought it meant the "LOL OMG Buffy is captured and raped by a hundred demons becuz she was so omg meen to Spike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" punish-the-female-character-you-hate 'story', or the Nick Bent/PRED "all women are bitches and deserve this" crap.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2005-08-28 09:39 pm UTC

[info]shun_mcdaddy
2005-08-28 07:55 pm UTC (link)
I wonder why [info]senor_pinata always is the one who's in every blasted thread about Milly.

Hmm?:/ Like the fan who blasts about Todd Rundgren's wife everytime she's mentioned..

Blood-sucking Tick, much?*lol*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 10:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 11:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2005-08-28 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loki, 2005-08-28 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleo_lassen, 2005-08-30 03:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shun_mcdaddy, 2005-08-28 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2005-08-28 09:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]batsith, 2005-08-28 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2005-08-30 02:57 am UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shun_mcdaddy, 2005-08-28 08:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2005-08-28 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shun_mcdaddy, 2005-08-28 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shun_mcdaddy, 2005-08-28 08:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 08:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2005-08-28 11:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-28 11:35 pm UTC
hem hem
[info]heddychaa
2005-08-28 08:00 pm UTC (link)
actually I don't think this does belong i_wank, speaking as one of the wankers. millyfan wasn't involved at all, and the wank didn't come from her post, but instead from something that was said in response to that post. I just decided to take PERSONALOFFENSEOMG at being told I had issues for the fact that I get all hot and bothered about rape fantasy, even though the person I was arguing with wasn't even talking about rape fantasy in the first place. we threw insults, we realized the misunderstanding, we kissed and made up. day in the life. =P

although there should probably be a jurisimprudence law for people who bring up logical fallacies whilst commiting some of their own. haha.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: hem hem - [info]mistressrenet, 2005-08-28 08:24 pm UTC
Re: hem hem - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 08:37 pm UTC
Re: hem hem - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 08:47 pm UTC
Re: hem hem - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-28 09:33 pm UTC
Re: hem hem - [info]batsith, 2005-08-28 10:00 pm UTC
Re: hem hem - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-29 03:37 am UTC
Re: hem hem - [info]batsith, 2005-08-29 08:43 am UTC
Re: hem hem - [info]mistressrenet, 2005-08-28 09:01 pm UTC

[info]heddychaa
2005-08-28 08:06 pm UTC (link)
oh, and, psst, Millyfan... HeddychaA. not HeddychaN.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 10:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-28 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-28 10:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-29 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinneas, 2005-08-29 05:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2005-08-29 05:49 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-28 10:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-29 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-29 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-30 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-29 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-31 06:40 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2005-08-28 10:49 pm UTC (link)
So now everyone is wanking over weather this should be taken to i_wank or not.

ZOMG nobody is immune!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antigone, 2005-08-29 08:33 am UTC

[info]manic
2005-08-29 12:10 pm UTC (link)
Wait, wait - you made a post about rape on a rant forum and then was surprised to see the wank?

bwhahahahahhahahah!

(Reply to this)


[info]pokeaboo
2005-08-29 12:55 pm UTC (link)
C'mon millyfan, you're smart enough to know that fanficrants appears on a regular basis here. Esp. with topics that are potentially explosive because there'll always be someone at that comm who doesn't get the point you're trying to make.

Christ on a pogo stick, the wood for your cross could be put to better use elsewhere.

So you were greeted by a ton of "Bitch, please" sentiments in reaction to this post here at fandom_wank.

Then you bring it to GAFF as well. Sorry, attention-whoring + inferiority complex needs vindication much?

Very much like the last time you were *coughs* "Tired about the Slash Vs. Het arguments, so you decided to make another thread about it."

By this time, it's laughably hard to believe if you were to protest about i_wank and you not being best buddies. Or to even care about what was the motivation behind the post on fanficrants. On that note, I need to go find a "Bitch, Please" icon and something more amusing.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-29 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]heddychaa, 2005-08-29 09:52 pm UTC
It's like self-sacrifices providing the tinhats, wood and gasoline - [info]pokeaboo, 2005-08-30 06:31 am UTC

[info]zarla
2005-08-30 01:47 am UTC (link)
Haha, I knew this would show up here. It's something in life ya can depend on.

(Reply to this)


lonesomepudding
2005-08-30 04:17 am UTC (link)
MF posted on GAFF just to see what the GAFFers had to say on the topic of rapefic and about the whole kerfluffle on fanficrants over it.

Maybe it was wanky, "spreading it around" like that, but, you know, I'm glad she did. It just confirms for me why I preffer the GAFF to any other fandom snark-site I've been on. Yes, people get wanky there, people have fights. I've been involved in and have even started a number of wanky fights there... and there are people there I consider idiots, just like on every large forum I've been a member of...

But, on the whole, the responses on that thread confirm for me that GAFFers, for the most part, are sane, intelligent people who really know the difference between a good fanfic/good fanfic concept and a bad fanfic/bad fanfic concept. And, while there are many proud porn-writer GAFFers, most realize that p0rn and arousal aren't the be all and end all of fanfiction - They understand where people like MillyFan are coming from when they complain about not liking things like badly-written-happy-porn rapefic. (Or me for that matter, with my own complaints about the form).

This isn't to say that "GAFF is so teh superior to F_W," just that GAFF is more to my personal tastes, because, generally, I like the whole attitude of (most of) the members there better.

Right now, I'm at a point where I'm just amused at this whole thing, from MillyFan feeling all persecuted when she really was spreading the attention on herself around (Hey, we're secure enough in our friendship that we aren't afraid of calling each other out on wank and childish behavior. I call her out, she calls me out, we stay friends), to how someone accused me of trying to seriously rebutt them on a tongue-in-cheek comment when I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment myself (Ooh, poke them! They jump! They actually thought I was being SERIOUS?), to... how most of the people in the thread aren't commenting on the wank anymore and going "icon-love!" - it's like watching toddlers get distracted by something shiny! It's hilarious!

This whole thing is just friggin' hiliarous. Glad I got to bring the wank. It was fun. (OMG, what's happening to me?!! I'm learning to lighten up! Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-08-30 04:44 am UTC
(no subject) - lonesomepudding, 2005-08-30 04:53 am UTC

 
   
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