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das_mervin ([info]das_mervin) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2005-10-31 15:47:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Wank befitting of Halloween!
Well, on Bravo, I watched a little special about the 100 Scariest Movie Moments of all time. A few were foreign films--one of which was Audition, a Japanese horror film. It's damned unpleasant. So, naturally, I'm fascinated and head over to good ol' IMDB and look at the reviews and message boards. And on the message boards I find a comment has degenerated into wank.

Someone says they didn't like the movie. States why. And for a while, people politely tell him that maybe he wasn't looking for the right thing--it's a psychological film, don't interpret it literally, watch it more than once, all that. And then our catalyst jumps into the fray!



EllsworthToohey: Typical American... always looking at the visuals instead of the implications. America has lost its grip on good psychological horrors, like this one. It isn't meant to gross you out, maybe a squirm, but it's more meant to make you think, it's meant to disturb you. It doesn't want 'so bad' to make you throw up, or else the scenes would have been more graphic. (link)

pepe2: EllsworthToohey I agree with you 100%. Americans these days... unable to comprehend anything sophisticated...</i> (link)



OH NO!!! AMERICAN BASHING!!!!!!!! BROAD STEREOTYPES!!!

And what wank is complete without pointless swearing?



derekdavila: Hey screw you guys talkin sh*t about Americans and that we are ALL about the visuals! I absolutely loved the pyschological aspects of this film and many others. The visuals in it are just a side treat for me! Quit generalizing you bigoted f*ks!! (link)



Well, that really helps your case--no one will ever bash Americans after that.

A few more choice quotes:



jaytrade: As someone who used to go to foriegn consulates/embasies for a living, then I can say that there is wide varity of people from all nations, from smart, nice people, to dumb nasty morons. (link)

hamilton_bobby God i'm so tired of going to boards to discuss with other fans about films and i feel like get automatically bashed because i am an american.

Geez... It so cool to be anti-American now-a-days. Please Bash Morons, Bash Hollywood, but please dont Bash All Americans
(link)



And, finally, shrubbmeister hops in to put in his own little wank:



shrubbmeister: This movie is loved by sick, psychotic females cause it shows a man being butchered. What if the lead was a MALE slicing up a helpless female? ANY movie that glorifies sadism sucks, as do all the fans of said movie. Disagree? Become the real life victim of such gore and torture. Then pontificate here. (link)



EDIT: Sorry, forgot links. All fixed.



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[info]kadath
2005-10-31 11:08 pm UTC (link)
This movie is loved by sick, psychotic females cause it shows a man being butchered. What if the lead was a MALE slicing up a helpless female?

Soooo...every other horror movie, then?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]scootermcgaffin, 2005-10-31 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-10-31 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adora_spintriae, 2005-10-31 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katienichol, 2005-11-01 07:07 am UTC

[info]scootermcgaffin
2005-10-31 11:09 pm UTC (link)
This movie is loved by sick, psychotic females cause it shows a man being butchered. What if the lead was a MALE slicing up a helpless female?

Because that's never happened in the history of horror movies

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-10-31 11:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2005-11-01 12:29 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-11-01 12:38 am UTC

[info]funwithrage
2005-10-31 11:23 pm UTC (link)
Oh, God. I've heard just enough about that movie to make me not want to watch it *ever*. But I'm easily squicked.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-10-31 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 12:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kelschuu, 2005-11-01 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - jenova, 2005-11-01 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 02:44 am UTC

[info]shallow_kid
2005-10-31 11:31 pm UTC (link)
pepe2: EllsworthToohey I agree with you 100%. Americans these days... unable to comprehend anything sophisticated...

Kids these days. Just won't goddamn stay off my lawn ...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jetamors, 2005-11-01 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shallow_kid, 2005-11-01 01:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sock_pupetteer, 2005-11-01 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jetamors, 2005-11-01 05:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_padfoot, 2005-11-01 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]giventofly37, 2005-11-01 04:20 am UTC

[info]wankprophet
2005-10-31 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Links, people, liiiiinks. You should never post a wank without links.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-10-31 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wankprophet, 2005-11-01 03:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:24 am UTC

[info]elektra3
2005-10-31 11:38 pm UTC (link)
Typical American... always looking at the visuals instead of the implications. America has lost its grip on good psychological horrors, like this one. It isn't meant to gross you out, maybe a squirm, but it's more meant to make you think, it's meant to disturb you. It doesn't want 'so bad' to make you throw up, or else the scenes would have been more graphic.

And that has to do with this person's nationality... how?

Also, I fail to see how becoming sick at the sight of sickening images is a sign of spiritual inferiority. Different people react to things in different ways. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with being, y'know, not identical.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]slackerbitch, 2005-11-01 08:27 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-01-16 06:45 am UTC

[info]phosfate
2005-10-31 11:59 pm UTC (link)
Become the real life victim of such gore and torture.

I gotta tell you guys, I had to interview Ron Matlowski, the Chief Detective of our local Mystical Serial Killings Squad (aka the "Hockey Masks"), for a school project back in '84, and shrubbmeister has a point. There's a human cost here, both to the victims' families and the officers' mental health. There really is nothing funny about an unstoppable jumpsuited juggernaut wearing a belt of (left) human ears emerging each and every legal holiday to terrorize a city's non-virgin teenage babysitters with power tools.

Until the tools' batteries run out. Then, the cops break out the fire hoses, and it's hilarious.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 12:29 am UTC

[info]doomsday
2005-11-01 12:15 am UTC (link)
I've actually seen imdb wank on that movie before. That 100 scariest moments show inspired me to rent Audition, which is fantastic - I love horror films, and am currently digging all the Japanese ones.

Then I went to imdb and saw all that crap, such as this (about the movie being boring) and this (in which some idiot named babanoosh can't grasp the concept of dream sequences and plot holes).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 12:26 am UTC
Speaking of Japanese horror... - [info]redjackcash, 2005-11-01 12:38 am UTC
Re: Speaking of Japanese horror... - [info]azhidahaki, 2005-11-01 02:19 am UTC
Re: Speaking of Japanese horror... - [info]redjackcash, 2005-11-01 02:42 am UTC
Re: Speaking of Japanese horror... - [info]azhidahaki, 2005-11-01 03:48 pm UTC
Re: Speaking of Japanese horror... - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - jenova, 2005-11-01 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 02:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 02:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 03:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:29 am UTC
(no subject) - jenova, 2005-11-01 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 03:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2005-11-01 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 02:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2005-11-01 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 07:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 03:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 05:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 03:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiffers, 2005-11-01 04:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 04:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiffers, 2005-11-01 08:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2005-11-01 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2005-11-01 03:33 pm UTC

[info]psychofangirl
2005-11-01 12:20 am UTC (link)
I LOVED Audition. What made it great was that everything that girl was calculated with cool precision.

I usually don't like horror either. Heh.

(Reply to this)


[info]miss_arel
2005-11-01 12:34 am UTC (link)
A guy who'se screenname is Ellsworth Toohey, being snide and pretentious? Now who coulda seen that coming? *glares at Ayn Rand*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-11-01 02:44 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-11-01 10:56 am UTC

[info]rowsdower
2005-11-01 12:46 am UTC (link)
To date, Audition is the only movie I have ever seen that has made me A) shriek aloud (fuck you, telephone and bag scene!) and B) kind of want to barf. And this is from somebody who squeals and claps like a delighted two year old throughout drippingly gory zombie movies. It was a highly effective horror movie, a very thought-provoking one at that, but so deeply unpleasant and realistic (Freddy Kreuger can't really get you through your dreams, but that quiet girl you're interested in COULD end up being a murderous torture freak) that I don't ever really want to see it again. The most important lesson I got from it, though, was that Takashi Miike is nuttier than a pecan pie. Viewings of his other movies have only stressed this point further.

About the wank itself, I want to claw the eyes out of everyone who says, "I'm not surprised you don't GET it, you being a mere lowly and boorish [FILL IN BLANK]." That guy's such a smug, pretentious asshole that I can hear his self-satisfied, jaw-clenched chuckle through the internet.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - hereforthewank, 2005-11-01 04:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 05:02 am UTC

[info]sabinelagrande
2005-11-01 12:51 am UTC (link)
Ugh. I saw 100 Scariest Movie Moments like six months ago, and it still gives me the creeps.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ctrlaltdlt, 2005-11-01 01:17 am UTC

sharonapple
2005-11-01 01:04 am UTC (link)
Oh dear God no!

The memories of the piano-wire being wrapped around the paraplegic child molesting stepfather! The man-in-the-bag-wihout a tongue eating her vomit! The PIANO WIRE. THE FREAKING PIANO WIRE.

*shrieks and turns into a blubbering pile of hysterics*

Okay, now that that's out of my system... It was a good movie, even if I could never watch the sticking the needles into his tongue part. Or the whole, "Sawing off your foot whee!"

And uh.. although I wouldn't put it past Takashi Miike to do shock-gore for kicks (almost every one of his films is nutty, ie Ichi the Killer), Audition was actually more than just a glorification of Sadism. I mean, most of the movie wasn't about the torture, although it did lead up to it. I think it was more of a "be careful what you wish for"/"you never know who's a wacky nutso who likes to torture people" movie.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]theamazingrando, 2005-11-01 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 02:30 am UTC
(no subject) - jenova, 2005-11-01 01:56 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 02:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2005-11-01 03:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-02 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2005-11-02 06:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]krazycat, 2005-11-01 02:09 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaseroque, 2005-11-01 12:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 03:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 04:07 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:21 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:38 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]winterfalls, 2005-11-01 04:31 am UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 04:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 05:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-02 03:28 am UTC

[info]ingrid
2005-11-01 01:29 am UTC (link)
Bashing "Pink Flamingos" as an example of lousy filmmaking?

Stupid bitch, noyoudidn't ...

*smears dogpoop on your pizza, calls it meatballs*

(Reply to this)

Can I just interject that I read your icon as "I *kiss* ass for the Lord"?
[info]culsu
2005-11-01 01:41 am UTC (link)
And I'm not sure which version I like better. Heh.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Can I just interject that I read your icon as "I *kiss* ass for the Lord"? - [info]fiatincantatum, 2005-11-01 04:27 am UTC
Re: Can I just interject that I read your icon as "I *kiss* ass for the Lord"? - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:29 am UTC
Re: Can I just interject that I read your icon as "I *kiss* ass for the Lord"? - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:29 am UTC

[info]amxjm
2005-11-01 02:10 am UTC (link)
Augh. Damn your icon for reminding me of that horrible "Dead Alive" movie.

Though, I do have to admit, that one line was great.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 02:33 am UTC

[info]c_chan
2005-11-01 02:41 am UTC (link)
I saw Audition with my mom, and it squicked the hell out of both of us. Otherwise, it's really great, and it builds up to everything in a great love. *hearts Jap. Horror*

If they wanna get wanky about the 100 Movie Moments, wank about the movie that came in at number one! HOURS AND HOURS WASTED JUST TO FIND OUT THAT STPUID MOVIE WAS NUMBER ONE! [/wank]

Okay, I'm done.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)
spoiler? - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 02:56 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
Re: spoiler? - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:11 am UTC
Re: spoiler? - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:19 am UTC
Re: spoiler? - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:21 am UTC
Re: spoiler? - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:44 am UTC
Re: spoiler? - [info]psychofangirl, 2005-11-01 08:35 am UTC
Re: spoiler? - [info]sokudoningyou, 2005-11-02 11:48 am UTC
Re: spoiler? - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 05:24 pm UTC
Re: spoiler for the English version - [info]mouseybrown, 2005-11-01 12:01 pm UTC
Re: spoiler for the English version - [info]baskinglizard, 2005-11-01 03:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2005-11-01 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2005-11-01 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2005-11-01 08:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 04:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 04:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 05:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:56 am UTC
(no subject) - hereforthewank, 2005-11-01 05:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 05:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 04:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 04:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]also_not_a_pipe, 2005-11-01 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xero_sky, 2005-11-01 06:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2005-11-01 06:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2005-11-01 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-11-02 03:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychofangirl, 2005-11-01 08:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]feloniousfeline, 2005-11-01 06:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2005-11-01 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]das_mervin, 2005-11-01 04:45 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:01 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2005-11-01 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2005-11-01 05:05 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]c_chan, 2005-11-01 03:14 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 04:03 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-02 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luckdragonfujur, 2005-11-01 05:41 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-02 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mouseybrown, 2005-11-01 12:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - sharonapple, 2005-11-01 03:02 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2005-11-01 03:27 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2005-11-01 03:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-11-01 08:13 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]wrongly_amused
2005-11-01 05:55 am UTC (link)
Oh noes, as an American, I feel so OWNED by people who base my intelligence on a horror film!

(Reply to this)


[info]also_not_a_pipe
2005-11-01 07:31 am UTC (link)
As TV spots for not only an American horror film, but an American remake of a Japanese horror film kept me up at night, I feel that the only way to redeem my inadequacy is to go kill myself in the supposedly haunted attic of my building.

But that place is freaking scary even during the day, so it'll have to wait until it isn't dark out anymore. Damn my Americanosity! It has made me unable to handle any sort of creepy things.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-11-02 12:17 am UTC

[info]kantayra
2005-11-01 08:42 am UTC (link)
Become the real life victim of such gore and torture. Then pontificate here.

I would think that, being sliced up and such, one might lack the hands to type or the tongue to speak. But, then, I'm not the real life victim of gore and torture, so - alas - all my thoughts and logic are meaningless.

(Reply to this)


[info]jaseroque
2005-11-01 12:15 pm UTC (link)
... ohh, I remember that film. It was the film I accidentally got drawn into watching, at midnight, on my own, because it was in Japanese and I'm a Japanese major and I figured 'hey, practice!'. And then funnily enough I couldn't go to bed, and wound up with a post in my lj which basically read "I SWEAR THERE IS AN ASIAN WOMAN HIDING IN MY CLOSET WAITING TO CUT OFF MY FEET!!!" *shivers*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2005-11-01 03:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaseroque, 2005-11-01 04:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2005-11-01 05:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaseroque, 2005-11-01 05:30 pm UTC

[info]go_shirly
2005-11-01 06:44 pm UTC (link)
America has lost its grip on good psychological horrors, like this one. It isn't meant to gross you out, maybe a squirm, but it's more meant to make you think, it's meant to disturb you.
Yes, because Takashi Miike is all about the implied horror and not at all about the grossing-out. Look, I love the guy's movies, and believe that Audition is one of his most layered, but he's definitely not above shock and extreme gore (to the point that it's almost comedic). Half of his movies contain some form of incest or lactation, because it squicks people out, and I think he finds it funny to do that.

This movie is loved by sick, psychotic females cause it shows a man being butchered. What if the lead was a MALE slicing up a helpless female?
Yes, because it's not like that for every Audition there are fifty Flower of Flesh and Bloods. Or twenty dead hookers drowned in a kiddie-pool of feces (thanks, Takashi Miike!).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ruby_tuesday, 2005-11-01 06:55 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2005-11-01 09:50 pm UTC (link)
The girl in Audition was creepy from the very start. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I suppose that if she managed to creep me out from the moment I saw her, the movie hit home for me.

(Reply to this)


[info]catslash
2005-11-02 09:36 am UTC (link)
I'd just like to say that I'm really glad I read this post, and all the threads, at two-thirty in the morning. No, really. That was a swell idea. It's not like I'm so embarrassingly suggestible that even discussing horror movies spooks me or anything, and certainly not like I haven't done this to myself many times before. I just never learn.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]littlekitsch, 2005-11-14 09:33 am UTC



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