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varia_lectio ([info]varia_lectio) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 1970-04-07 08:36:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:Navel-Gazing
Current music:"The Fifth Element" soundtrack
Entry tags:fantasy, sci-fi people like to fight

Gregory Benford vs. Fantasy genre-- film at eleven!
*Ahem* *steps up to the microphone* This is my first posting of a wank, and though it is now a little old and crusty, I hope it'll still serve to entertain... or whatever.

Anyway, this one really fits under 'psuedo-intellectual definitions'.

Gregory Benford, whether you've heard of him or not, is a hard-science fiction author. In his blog, he has a conversation with Darrell Schweitzer about the rise in popularity of fantasy fiction, as opposed to science fiction. The conversation begins thusly, with Benford's side:

We’ll run current commentary here, and to start, here’s something a bit more substantial, yet in the news.
George Martin’s mammoth fantasy novel sits atop the bestseller lists, so it’s time to ask:

WHAT DOES THE RISE OF FANTASY MEAN?

A conversation between GB and DARRELL SCHWEITZER

Four out of the last five Hugo awards were won by fantasy. Yet it’s the award of the World Science Fiction Convention, named for Hugo Gernsback, who edited the first science fiction magazine.

Fantasy has very, very cleverly managed to capture the apparatus erected by science fiction fandom and pro-dom, and fantasy writers now dominate the Science Fiction Writers of America. They’ve taken over the Hugo awards—which I thus usually don’t attend. A Harry Potter novel won a few years back and I walked out.


That's polite. [/sarcasm]

But wait! There's more! Fantasy = Intellectual Cowardice!

But now, most of the readership is running away from these problems, perhaps terrified by them. So instead, while reading doorstop sagas they can pretend that they’re really wielding swords in defense of the king, or something—a retreat that horrified people like Isaac Asimov. He saw this as just an old intellectual cowardice. But of course, people do it for emotional reasons. They like to pretend that they’re really the princes from another land. But they’re really corporate serfs.

Marvel at the galaxy-spanning leaps of logic! I'm not sure if I should be offended or just amused that he's smeared-- er, profiled an entire group of genre enthusiasts like that. It's sort of like saying that science-fiction fans are all pimple-faced teenage boys with no social lives and, especially, no girlfriends.

Oh, wait-- people already say that!

Not to be deterred, Benford concludes by saying in essence that those in the West should damn well better start reading intellectual hard science-fiction so as to better their societies, because if Americans and Europeans don't, the Chinese and Indians will! After all, who can create a better society when you spend your free time thinking about really big problems like dragons?

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE BETTER SOCIETY?!

Original wank and the ensuing comments can be found at: http://benford-rose.com/blog/?p=3




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[info]beccastareyes
2006-02-27 04:55 am UTC (link)
Can we please get some paragraphs? It looks like your formatting got eaten.

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(no subject) - [info]batshitinsane, 2006-02-27 05:02 am UTC

[info]shahrizai
2006-02-27 05:06 am UTC (link)
Or maybe some of us just don't want the pseudo-intellectual bullshit of sci-fi and want something that pays more attention to characters than what kind of technology is used to flush the toilet in some far off galaxy?

Besides, sci-fi is just as escapist as fantasy. Come on, Ender's Game, anyone?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2006-02-27 07:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-02-27 02:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]naienko, 2006-02-27 06:46 pm UTC
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[info]crysiana
2006-02-27 05:14 am UTC (link)
So it's the old "omg why dun ppl like my fic the best its rly gud" thing? I would hope that professionals would rise above it, but I'm not surprised they haven't managed it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2006-02-27 05:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreamoflife02, 2006-02-27 05:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]truthseeker, 2006-02-27 05:52 am UTC
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[info]entrenous88
2006-02-27 05:14 am UTC (link)
hard-science fiction author
Help me out, because I read very little sci-fi. Do you mean he's hard-core as a sci-fi writer? Or is this a term that means something else?

Because now I'm thinking there's all this soft-science fiction based on pop psychology and new-age ideas of expressing yourself, but that Gregory Benford's characters know how to use a bunsen burner, yo.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]innsmouth_eyes, 2006-02-27 05:24 am UTC
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[info]innsmouth_eyes
2006-02-27 05:15 am UTC (link)
This looks familar, hasn't it been wanked already?

Anyway, there's a number of problems with this argument. One is that fantasy can have working rules that must be adhered to just like SF, and another is that much of the SF being produced today is just science fantasy. Even the hard stuff still takes a lot of liberties with reality. If it didn't, it wouldn't be science fiction, it would be science. Thirdly, what the fuck is wrong with dragons? Try telling Ursula K. LeGuin that fantasy is lazy.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]daylightsparks, 2006-02-27 06:58 am UTC
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[info]pyratejenni
2006-02-27 05:23 am UTC (link)
Fantasy is more popular because, unlike the majority of hard science fiction, fantasy tends to focus on people, not things. Characterization is considered more important than fantasy than in hard sf.

There's a reason romance outsells every other category combined, folks.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - rachelthedemon, 2006-02-27 05:56 am UTC
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[info]pyratejenni
2006-02-27 05:29 am UTC (link)
Something else:

JKR won a Hugo because the fans voted for it. And they voted for it because of their kids liking it, or because they -- shock of shocks -- liked it themselves!

Go down to Builder's Square, pick up some 2x4s and a hammer, build a bridge and get the fuck over it.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladybirdsleeps
2006-02-27 05:29 am UTC (link)
That right there is a guy who doesn't read enough.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-02-27 06:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]varia_lectio, 2006-02-27 07:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]crickets, 2006-02-27 08:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]combledore, 2006-02-27 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]varia_lectio, 2006-02-28 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]baskinglizard, 2006-02-28 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 04:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2006-02-27 07:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semiotics, 2006-02-27 08:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2006-02-28 05:16 pm UTC
It's kind of like the whole Mundane SF Manifesto thing
[info]themercymachine
2006-02-27 05:36 am UTC (link)
Benford & co just doesn't understand why people bother to read fiction in the first place. Any fiction. Readers are more aware of the differences between fantasy and reality than they think.

(Reply to this)


[info]annabelle_lee
2006-02-27 05:49 am UTC (link)
Mmm, those sour grapes must've been fermenting for a while to produce such a fine "OMG IM BETTER THAN U BUT NOBODY LIKES ME" whine. It's a good thing he doesn't have an LJ; trolls would probably show up in droves to tell him to go slit his wrists and shut up.

(Reply to this)


[info]wrongly_amused
2006-02-27 05:54 am UTC (link)
But of course, people do it for emotional reasons. They like to pretend that they’re really the princes from another land.

...


</td>


The Point



Gregory Benford's Head

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]entrenous88, 2006-02-27 06:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-02-27 06:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2006-02-27 06:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2006-02-27 07:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]your_face, 2006-02-27 07:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2006-02-27 07:43 am UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2006-02-27 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2006-02-27 08:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]crickets, 2006-02-27 08:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2006-02-27 08:42 am UTC
... - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-02-27 09:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2006-02-27 10:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suziecroft, 2006-02-27 03:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2006-02-27 03:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 04:42 pm UTC

[info]dreamoflife02
2006-02-27 05:54 am UTC (link)
Aaaahhh! People are reading things they enjoy! Run for the hiiiiiiills!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kissee, 2006-02-27 07:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 07:03 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]marlo, 2006-02-27 08:52 pm UTC

rachelthedemon
2006-02-27 06:02 am UTC (link)
Dude. I read fantasy because I like screwed up characters with twisted, unique motives trying to accomplish equally twisted, unique goals. I don't read much sci-fi at all because unless you're from the Frank Herbert school of Characters and Plotting Are More Important Than Astrophysics, you're going to bore me to tears.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2006-02-27 08:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lurker32, 2006-02-27 10:49 pm UTC
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[info]nebbieq
2006-02-27 06:10 am UTC (link)
So, what does that make us soft science fiction fans? People who want to be princesses in rocketships?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]entrenous88, 2006-02-27 06:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2006-02-27 10:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 04:45 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 04:45 pm UTC

[info]pyrrah
2006-02-27 06:19 am UTC (link)
But what are his thoughts on yaoi?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]innsmouth_eyes, 2006-02-27 06:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-02-27 06:35 am UTC
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... - [info]white_serpent, 2006-02-28 12:11 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]smo, 2006-02-27 09:31 pm UTC

[info]waltraute
2006-02-27 06:34 am UTC (link)
Oh god, this is the eternal argument which devours rec.arts.sf.written every once in a while. That said, I think it's more interesting than the inevitable H*inl*in threads.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-02-27 06:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2006-02-27 08:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2006-02-27 03:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tunxeh, 2006-02-27 06:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]billymasqets, 2006-02-27 04:34 pm UTC

[info]aerobot
2006-02-27 07:01 am UTC (link)
So escapism, imagination, new ideas/concepts, and inner-childs = intellectual cowardice and total social decay and will bring the downfall of society.

Wow, they're like fundies, just without the religion.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]doroc_sabah, 2006-02-27 06:42 pm UTC

[info]musouka
2006-02-27 07:06 am UTC (link)
Interestingly enough, if somewhat tangential to the actual wank, when I was a little kid, I started out with sci-fi (and yes, even some of the harder stuff; I basically read whatever I could find in my dad's bookcase), but as I'm getting older, I find myself reading a lot more fantasy.

Does this mean I'm getting stupider or what?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]your_face, 2006-02-27 07:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-02-27 07:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nightwalker, 2006-02-27 07:49 am UTC

[info]meiyamie
2006-02-27 07:13 am UTC (link)
I really would like to think that these established authors know better. Bugger that. xD People are sooo silly. *patpatpat*

It has everything! The jab at megafandoms -- Harry Potter and Star Wars! Citations of Asimov and Stalin! His boohoo childhood story! Westerncentric "The chinks are coming" observations! And in the end-- "I'M LEAVING BECAUSE YOU DON'T LOVE ME! AND YOU'RE STUPID!"

Why do I have a feeling he was killed off in D&D games or got a majorly loaded dice? :p

(Reply to this)


[info]selene_avis
2006-02-27 07:30 am UTC (link)
So instead, while reading doorstop sagas they can pretend that they’re really wielding swords in defense of the king, or something—a retreat that horrified people like Isaac Asimov. He saw this as just an old intellectual cowardice. But of course, people do it for emotional reasons. They like to pretend that they’re really the princes from another land. But they’re really corporate serfs.

Dude. Asimov's The Prime of Life involves him killing a young boy who calls him old. I know he's brilliant and all, but should you really invoke his name while wanking about the fantasy genre?

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE BETTER SOCIETY?!

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE DRAGONS?!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]reinhardt, 2006-02-27 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-02-27 08:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2006-02-27 08:38 am UTC
... - [info]cyndra_falin, 2006-02-27 08:59 am UTC
... - [info]felinephoenix, 2006-02-27 10:17 am UTC
... - [info]fryingpanofdoom, 2006-02-28 01:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lurker32, 2006-02-27 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2006-02-27 10:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2006-02-27 11:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2006-02-27 03:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-02-27 11:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2006-02-28 12:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-02-27 06:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nekoneko, 2006-02-27 07:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lurker32, 2006-02-27 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-02-28 12:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-02-28 12:03 am UTC
... - [info]bobgenghiskhan, 2006-02-28 04:37 am UTC
... - [info]seiberwing, 2006-02-28 04:41 am UTC

[info]brown_betty
2006-02-27 07:57 am UTC (link)
I find that hard SF reminds me too much of train schedule mysteries. Nothing makes me enjoy a book less than the feeling I'm going to be tested on it later.

(Reply to this)


[info]life_on_mars
2006-02-27 08:37 am UTC (link)
I don't read sword-and-sorcery stuff because I don't much like it, but that doesn't mean I think there's anything essentially wrong with it.

This sounds like a classic case of sour grapes to me; essentially the guy's dissing the entire reading public of the world (he's nothing if not ambitious) because they're reading other authors and not him.

Sweetie, if they're not reading you, it's not because there's something wrong with them, it's because there's something wrong with you. You sound like a little teenage girlie whining at the back of the classroom because you're not as popular as you'd like to be, and there's only one remedy for that.

Grow The Fuck Up.

(Reply to this)


[info]chikane
2006-02-27 08:42 am UTC (link)
Damn. And here I thought I was reading fantasy because hard fantasy reads too much like splooge. Soft fantasy is fun tho, especially if it gets mixed with mysticism.

BUT OMG THIS MEANS I AM NOT THINKING OF THE BETTER SOCIETY WOE.

(Reply to this)


[info]stella_polaris
2006-02-27 09:24 am UTC (link)
Slightly OT, but I'm curious. Am I the only one who really doesn't consider HP to be fantasy literature? I mean, I know it fits into the category, but I just find it hard to view as fantasy. Just like, I dunno. Artemis Fowl?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2006-02-27 03:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2006-02-27 04:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]influencethis, 2006-02-28 12:40 am UTC
... - [info]your_face, 2006-02-28 07:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2006-02-27 04:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2006-02-28 02:58 am UTC

[info]billymasqets
2006-02-27 09:30 am UTC (link)
Heavens to Betsy! Not this again.

What I find especially amusing in this particular rant about the intellectual laziness of the fantasy genre is his mention of George Martin. Martin's easily as well-versed in history as most of the so-called "hard sci-fi authors" are in physics.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]telesilla, 2006-02-27 09:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]belafarinrod, 2006-02-27 01:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2006-02-27 10:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-02-27 07:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]community_care, 2006-02-27 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2006-02-27 10:19 pm UTC
... - [info]jat_sapphire, 2006-02-28 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luthe, 2006-02-28 04:57 am UTC
... - ealusaid, 2006-02-28 06:42 am UTC
... - [info]community_care, 2006-02-28 10:19 am UTC
... - [info]luthe, 2006-02-28 10:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]spawn_of_kong, 2006-02-27 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spawn_of_kong, 2006-02-27 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]billymasqets, 2006-02-27 11:24 pm UTC



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