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NM (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} narcissam) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} fandom_wank,@ 2006-05-31 12:30:00 |
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John Byrne's Bestsellers Supressed by Comic Book Stores (Psst. he's Canadian)
I've never read anything by him but John Byrne has had a fond place in my heart ever since he tried to delete most of his Wikipedia entry, including the fact he was Canadian. I leaped up to see his name onwank_report even though this wank mostly features his #1 fan, Madman Mike O'Brien. Peter David took offence at a thread of Byrne's that he felt bashed his comics.
John Byrne bashing ensues in the comments, until Mike O'Brien, an old hand Byrne fan shows up to fight back. With news of a conspiracy by comic shop owners against Byrne.
Mike O'Brien: It's interestig that a writer known for "writing to the bit" would criticize a superior writer like John Byrne.
Wonder Woman, Lab Rats, Doom Patrol and Blood of the Demon. These are just a few of the man's latest masterpieces. Talked about by fans and pros alike as fresh and innovative takes on the hoary old superhero concept.
Let's not even bring up Next Men, Babe, Danger Unlimited, Namor and of course Alpha Flight. All of them celebrated by fans as all-time classics of comic literature!
Byrne has even written novels for chrissakes! What am I getting at here, sweetpea?
Just this, why does a tired old hack like Peter David continue to bash John Byrne? Could it be jealousy by a man who had to beg to get back on the Hulk and Spider-Man. Could it be because we have a very active messageboard honoring a true gentleman of the field, not a blog, what a creepy concept, by a man who just won't let go of his connection to a man greater than him.
Who knows? When John Byrne writes a character he brings out the best and the heroic side of the character and never forgets it's the all-age quality of the character that matters most. When David writes a character he tries to tear down the goodness and replace it with dick jokes and oh-so funny putdowns.
Now I'll go back to my mean old board and think about what Bono said: Vertigo, my friend Vertigo.
Bill Mulligan: Now THAT, my friends, is comedy.
Mike O'Brien: Byrne does nothing but create masterpieces, Lab Rats, Doom Patrol and the Demon have proven his artistry of the superhero concept. Fans and pro alike agree it's fresh and innovative.
Mike O'Brien posting a few minutes later: Byrne's working on the All-New Atom with full-figured writer supreme, Gail Simone.
What's Peter's next gig?
Mike O'Brien a few more minutes later: John Byrne's work has also appeared on the cover of Time.
I'm sure Peter's work on The Dark Tower book will garner mucho publicity as well.
That and $4.50 will get you a double late mochachino or 5 U2 songs on iTunes.
I recommend Native Son as one choice. It's an early version of Vertigo but moodier.
Joe Nazarro: A double 'late' mochachino? C'mon, somebody else step in; I can't do all the heavy lifting here!
Mike O'Brien: Joe, you can't do any of the heavy lifting. Oh my, you caught me, I misspelled "latte" a thousand pardons good sir!
Here try this one. If Peter David cares so much about the integrity of the characters he works on; why did he change the brilliant Wonder Girl character that Byrne created to be a normal teenager, into a blonde stand-in for Jenna Jameson?
You know who Jenna is, right Joe. I'm sure you do.
Madman Mike one minute later: Masterpiece. The output of one John Byrne. Open your eye and stol trying to curry the favor of your master for once.
Madman Mike immediately: LOL! That should say: Open your eyes and stop trying to curry the favor of your master for once.
Anyway, be honest with yourselves. Peace.
Robert Fuller: Normally I don't like to get involved in these sorts of things, but I gotta say that this Mike O'Brian/O'Brien (which is it? Does he really not know how to spell his own name?) is just the most pitiful person I've ever encountered. And he's certainly not doing any favors for John Byrne. He can't be for real, can he? He makes me miss that X-Ray guy.
Now can we get back to an actual rational, adult discussion?
Patrick Calloway: Well, considering he's also living in a bizarro-universe where people praised Byrne's Doom Patrol, perhaps spelling is equally mutable in his world.
And, sorry, I can't let this one slide by. Byrne has written novels? Um, yeah, techically, since the exactly two that he has written does qualify for the plural. Now if only PAD could manage to write that many...
Mike O'Brien: Never read Whipping Boy or Fear Book? Those were best-sellers. Guess you guys missed out on real literature. Undoubtedly too busy reading "the Hulk" by PAD. Or the character using the name "Hulk," anyway.
Patrick Calloway: As a matter of fact, son, I did read Whipping Boy. Had to track it down at used shops, since it's such a best-seller it was totally out of print. Never did find Fear Book.
If you had passed Reading Comprehension 101 you might have noted that I did say Byrne had written two novels, therefore, perhaps, just perhaps, implying that I was aware of their existence...
Madman Mike: Despite JBs best-selling novels, there are a lot of people in charge of ordering books at bookshops, who, not unlike yourself, have an agenda against the man and his work. They refuse to place orders, and suddenly, not so surprisingly, there is the illusion of a lack of demand. This is a hallmark of the comic shop owners who wish to see him fail.
Madman Mike about 45 minutes later: And please my friend, don't be so rude with your Reading Comprehension 101 remark. You know full well that Gods and Goddesses, the wonderful John Byrne Wonder Woman novel, was a best-seller as well as Fear Book and Whipping Boy. So please stuff your smugness in a sock, mister
People protest Byrne doesn't sell and Mike is a conspiracy theorist.
Madman Mike: Craig J. Ries and "djinnmastr", your true colors are showing. Comic shop owners say "Byrne doesn't sell," so of course they under-order his books. So when kids come in to find the all-ages books he produces---guess what?!? They don't carry them! Self-fulfilling prophecy!
But you knew this already.
Craig J. Ries: Your right... my true colors are that I'd ban your worthless ass if I had the power. We get enough spam around here that we don't need a troll like you, too.
Go sniff Byrne's ass since you seem to enjoy being behind it so much.
Mike O'Brien: Let's also not be so quick to pat Peter on the back for writing almost 50 novels. Most of those were done for existing characters. Byrne came up with Fear Book and Whipping Boy on his own. He created the characters.
If only the bookstores weren't run by the same fanboys that have taken over and slaughtered the direct sales market, he could have been the next Stephen King.
John Seavey: Mr. O'Brien, some polite advice:
Your attempts to defend John Byrne are pretty much achieving the opposite effect intended. I respect and admire Byrne's contributions to the comics industry, but you're championing his weakest work as being "lauded by fans and pros alike", you're actively insisting that "the bookstores" are run by people who have an anti-Byrne agenda (this would be every bookstore in America, then? Nationwide chains like Barnes and Noble are run by some geek saying, "Pffh. John Byrne's not anywhere near as good as Peter David. I won't order any of his books for my hundreds of stores.")...in short, you're really making a bad impression.
My advice would be to keep quiet and let John Byrne's writing and art speak for themselves. (Which would probably be my advice to Byrne, too, should he ask for it; his central point, that sometimes writers make too drastic a change on a book simply to "shake things up", is valid, but he does it a disservice with the examples he cited.)
This isn't a popularity contest, it isn't a "Byrne vs. David" debate; both of them have done some almighty great work over the course of their long careers. John Byrne just put his foot in his mouth, that's all. Trying to fit it all the way down your throat, while insisting that you love the taste of shoe leather, isn't the best way to prove your point.
Jason M. Bryant: Actually, at this point I'm leaning more towards believing that Mike O'Brien (sounds like Miguel O'Hara) isn't being serious.
djinnmastr: I'm leaning towards Mike O'Brian being John Byrne...
Rafael: Well, believe it or not, Darick Robertson used this 'Mike O'Brian' as a basis for the editor character in Transmetropolitan. So, he's not John Byrne.
He is, however, a deeply disturbed individual. He is like the Silas character in The DaVinci Code, except he uses Byrne comics as a method of self flagelation.
Just watch and laugh.
Peter David: As for Mike's (Mikes') comments, it's hilarious that he would accuse people here of kowtowing to me when he parrots, word for word, John's inaccurate criticisms of my work. Tragically, there's no party line here to be toed, no cute slam phrases to be echoed, so everyone is forced to think for themselves rather than mouth John's words. Tragic, that. Set your watches: I'm sure he'll be along to accuse me of having someone fall to their death underwater any time now.
And yes, John's done more "original" titles than I. Then again, "Soulsearchers and Company" has run far longer than any of John's original titles, and then there's "Sachs & Violens" and "Fallen Angel," not to mention novel series such as "Sir Apropos of Nothing," the King Arthur trilogy, and the upcoming "Hidden Earth" series, so...
and in response to 'What's Peter's next gig?"'
You mean BESIDES X-Factor, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, Fallen Angel, Marvel Adventures Spider-Man, Wonder Man, the Dark Tower, Spike vs. Dracula, Soulsearchers and Company, an FF novel, the novelization of Spider-Man 3, the next New Frontier novel and a NF novella, a Next Gen novel, and "The Hidden Earth?" Besides all that?
Okay, actually, I do have another comic series I've turned in the first script for, but Marvel wants to be further along before it's announced, so I'm going to respect that.
Peter David a few seconds later: My work has appeared on the Op-Ed page of "The New York Times." So...your point?
Stephen McGrath on the comic book store owners: RIGHT! So, they should keep their yaps shut when someone walks to the counter with a JB book, and not bash Byrne cuz THEY don't like him. I sell for AT&T. I'd be FIRED if I said to a customer: "You shouldn't get our DSL, I think it stinks and you should go with cable!"
Bill Myers: I have yet to meet a comic-book retailer who has discouraged anyone from buying Byrne's books. Perhaps you've met some, but I doubt it's an industry-wide epidemic. Byrne may think so, but he has a rather self-centered and child-like view of the universe.
For example, here is a quote from John Byrne himself, posted on his very board: "Having a "Bad Byrne" story to relate is a way of getting creds in some "pro" circles."
Right. It's got nothing to do with the way he disparages people like Peter David, accusing them of capriciously altering characters to suit their whims, while conveniently omitting his alterations of Superman, Spider-Man and the Vision, among others.
Stéphane Garrelie: Well, each time i see a thread about Byrne here or a trade about Pad at the JBF, i know one thing for sure and its that my dream of a comicbook writen by Peter David with art by John Byrne is not for tomorow.
Mike O'Brien a long while later: I read through every post and nothing was said to make me believe PAD over John Byrne. Nice try though..
Just like Sir Bob Geldoff said many times, "taint nuthin but a laffbook fiasco and I don't like Mondays".
Goodnight.
I've never read anything by him but John Byrne has had a fond place in my heart ever since he tried to delete most of his Wikipedia entry, including the fact he was Canadian. I leaped up to see his name on
wank_report even though this wank mostly features his #1 fan, Madman Mike O'Brien. Peter David took offence at a thread of Byrne's that he felt bashed his comics.Byrne: Once upon a time, when a writer wanted to "do something different" s/he left the character/title being worked on, handing it over to someone who wanted to continue with the established motifs. Some time around 25 years ago this started to change. Writers like Claremont and David, as well as others, began changing the books/characters to suit their interests of the moment....It's the same old song -- the characters being made to serve the needs of the talent, instead of the talent serving the needs of the characters
Peter David: You just have to love that from the guy who, before my run on the title, was handed a character who was unmarried and transformed into a monster when he got angry, and over the course of the run he split the character in two, separating them into two individual beings, thus eliminating a dynamic that had been in place for a quarter of a century, married off the hero, and basically wrote a series of stories that were indistinguishable from "Godzilla"--dedicated scientist and his group of equally dedicated followers pursues a furious green monster he's accidentally unleashed upon the world. Stories that, in short, had nothing to do with the Hulk.
John Byrne bashing ensues in the comments, until Mike O'Brien, an old hand Byrne fan shows up to fight back. With news of a conspiracy by comic shop owners against Byrne.
Mike O'Brien: It's interestig that a writer known for "writing to the bit" would criticize a superior writer like John Byrne.
Wonder Woman, Lab Rats, Doom Patrol and Blood of the Demon. These are just a few of the man's latest masterpieces. Talked about by fans and pros alike as fresh and innovative takes on the hoary old superhero concept.
Let's not even bring up Next Men, Babe, Danger Unlimited, Namor and of course Alpha Flight. All of them celebrated by fans as all-time classics of comic literature!
Byrne has even written novels for chrissakes! What am I getting at here, sweetpea?
Just this, why does a tired old hack like Peter David continue to bash John Byrne? Could it be jealousy by a man who had to beg to get back on the Hulk and Spider-Man. Could it be because we have a very active messageboard honoring a true gentleman of the field, not a blog, what a creepy concept, by a man who just won't let go of his connection to a man greater than him.
Who knows? When John Byrne writes a character he brings out the best and the heroic side of the character and never forgets it's the all-age quality of the character that matters most. When David writes a character he tries to tear down the goodness and replace it with dick jokes and oh-so funny putdowns.
Now I'll go back to my mean old board and think about what Bono said: Vertigo, my friend Vertigo.
Bill Mulligan: Now THAT, my friends, is comedy.
Mike O'Brien: Byrne does nothing but create masterpieces, Lab Rats, Doom Patrol and the Demon have proven his artistry of the superhero concept. Fans and pro alike agree it's fresh and innovative.
Mike O'Brien posting a few minutes later: Byrne's working on the All-New Atom with full-figured writer supreme, Gail Simone.
What's Peter's next gig?
Mike O'Brien a few more minutes later: John Byrne's work has also appeared on the cover of Time.
I'm sure Peter's work on The Dark Tower book will garner mucho publicity as well.
That and $4.50 will get you a double late mochachino or 5 U2 songs on iTunes.
I recommend Native Son as one choice. It's an early version of Vertigo but moodier.
Joe Nazarro: A double 'late' mochachino? C'mon, somebody else step in; I can't do all the heavy lifting here!
Mike O'Brien: Joe, you can't do any of the heavy lifting. Oh my, you caught me, I misspelled "latte" a thousand pardons good sir!
Here try this one. If Peter David cares so much about the integrity of the characters he works on; why did he change the brilliant Wonder Girl character that Byrne created to be a normal teenager, into a blonde stand-in for Jenna Jameson?
You know who Jenna is, right Joe. I'm sure you do.
Madman Mike one minute later: Masterpiece. The output of one John Byrne. Open your eye and stol trying to curry the favor of your master for once.
Madman Mike immediately: LOL! That should say: Open your eyes and stop trying to curry the favor of your master for once.
Anyway, be honest with yourselves. Peace.
Robert Fuller: Normally I don't like to get involved in these sorts of things, but I gotta say that this Mike O'Brian/O'Brien (which is it? Does he really not know how to spell his own name?) is just the most pitiful person I've ever encountered. And he's certainly not doing any favors for John Byrne. He can't be for real, can he? He makes me miss that X-Ray guy.
Now can we get back to an actual rational, adult discussion?
Patrick Calloway: Well, considering he's also living in a bizarro-universe where people praised Byrne's Doom Patrol, perhaps spelling is equally mutable in his world.
And, sorry, I can't let this one slide by. Byrne has written novels? Um, yeah, techically, since the exactly two that he has written does qualify for the plural. Now if only PAD could manage to write that many...
Mike O'Brien: Never read Whipping Boy or Fear Book? Those were best-sellers. Guess you guys missed out on real literature. Undoubtedly too busy reading "the Hulk" by PAD. Or the character using the name "Hulk," anyway.
Patrick Calloway: As a matter of fact, son, I did read Whipping Boy. Had to track it down at used shops, since it's such a best-seller it was totally out of print. Never did find Fear Book.
If you had passed Reading Comprehension 101 you might have noted that I did say Byrne had written two novels, therefore, perhaps, just perhaps, implying that I was aware of their existence...
Madman Mike: Despite JBs best-selling novels, there are a lot of people in charge of ordering books at bookshops, who, not unlike yourself, have an agenda against the man and his work. They refuse to place orders, and suddenly, not so surprisingly, there is the illusion of a lack of demand. This is a hallmark of the comic shop owners who wish to see him fail.
Madman Mike about 45 minutes later: And please my friend, don't be so rude with your Reading Comprehension 101 remark. You know full well that Gods and Goddesses, the wonderful John Byrne Wonder Woman novel, was a best-seller as well as Fear Book and Whipping Boy. So please stuff your smugness in a sock, mister
People protest Byrne doesn't sell and Mike is a conspiracy theorist.
Madman Mike: Craig J. Ries and "djinnmastr", your true colors are showing. Comic shop owners say "Byrne doesn't sell," so of course they under-order his books. So when kids come in to find the all-ages books he produces---guess what?!? They don't carry them! Self-fulfilling prophecy!
But you knew this already.
Craig J. Ries: Your right... my true colors are that I'd ban your worthless ass if I had the power. We get enough spam around here that we don't need a troll like you, too.
Go sniff Byrne's ass since you seem to enjoy being behind it so much.
Mike O'Brien: Let's also not be so quick to pat Peter on the back for writing almost 50 novels. Most of those were done for existing characters. Byrne came up with Fear Book and Whipping Boy on his own. He created the characters.
If only the bookstores weren't run by the same fanboys that have taken over and slaughtered the direct sales market, he could have been the next Stephen King.
John Seavey: Mr. O'Brien, some polite advice:
Your attempts to defend John Byrne are pretty much achieving the opposite effect intended. I respect and admire Byrne's contributions to the comics industry, but you're championing his weakest work as being "lauded by fans and pros alike", you're actively insisting that "the bookstores" are run by people who have an anti-Byrne agenda (this would be every bookstore in America, then? Nationwide chains like Barnes and Noble are run by some geek saying, "Pffh. John Byrne's not anywhere near as good as Peter David. I won't order any of his books for my hundreds of stores.")...in short, you're really making a bad impression.
My advice would be to keep quiet and let John Byrne's writing and art speak for themselves. (Which would probably be my advice to Byrne, too, should he ask for it; his central point, that sometimes writers make too drastic a change on a book simply to "shake things up", is valid, but he does it a disservice with the examples he cited.)
This isn't a popularity contest, it isn't a "Byrne vs. David" debate; both of them have done some almighty great work over the course of their long careers. John Byrne just put his foot in his mouth, that's all. Trying to fit it all the way down your throat, while insisting that you love the taste of shoe leather, isn't the best way to prove your point.
Jason M. Bryant: Actually, at this point I'm leaning more towards believing that Mike O'Brien (sounds like Miguel O'Hara) isn't being serious.
djinnmastr: I'm leaning towards Mike O'Brian being John Byrne...
Rafael: Well, believe it or not, Darick Robertson used this 'Mike O'Brian' as a basis for the editor character in Transmetropolitan. So, he's not John Byrne.
He is, however, a deeply disturbed individual. He is like the Silas character in The DaVinci Code, except he uses Byrne comics as a method of self flagelation.
Just watch and laugh.
Peter David: As for Mike's (Mikes') comments, it's hilarious that he would accuse people here of kowtowing to me when he parrots, word for word, John's inaccurate criticisms of my work. Tragically, there's no party line here to be toed, no cute slam phrases to be echoed, so everyone is forced to think for themselves rather than mouth John's words. Tragic, that. Set your watches: I'm sure he'll be along to accuse me of having someone fall to their death underwater any time now.
And yes, John's done more "original" titles than I. Then again, "Soulsearchers and Company" has run far longer than any of John's original titles, and then there's "Sachs & Violens" and "Fallen Angel," not to mention novel series such as "Sir Apropos of Nothing," the King Arthur trilogy, and the upcoming "Hidden Earth" series, so...
and in response to 'What's Peter's next gig?"'
You mean BESIDES X-Factor, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, Fallen Angel, Marvel Adventures Spider-Man, Wonder Man, the Dark Tower, Spike vs. Dracula, Soulsearchers and Company, an FF novel, the novelization of Spider-Man 3, the next New Frontier novel and a NF novella, a Next Gen novel, and "The Hidden Earth?" Besides all that?
Okay, actually, I do have another comic series I've turned in the first script for, but Marvel wants to be further along before it's announced, so I'm going to respect that.
Peter David a few seconds later: My work has appeared on the Op-Ed page of "The New York Times." So...your point?
Stephen McGrath on the comic book store owners: RIGHT! So, they should keep their yaps shut when someone walks to the counter with a JB book, and not bash Byrne cuz THEY don't like him. I sell for AT&T. I'd be FIRED if I said to a customer: "You shouldn't get our DSL, I think it stinks and you should go with cable!"
Bill Myers: I have yet to meet a comic-book retailer who has discouraged anyone from buying Byrne's books. Perhaps you've met some, but I doubt it's an industry-wide epidemic. Byrne may think so, but he has a rather self-centered and child-like view of the universe.
For example, here is a quote from John Byrne himself, posted on his very board: "Having a "Bad Byrne" story to relate is a way of getting creds in some "pro" circles."
Right. It's got nothing to do with the way he disparages people like Peter David, accusing them of capriciously altering characters to suit their whims, while conveniently omitting his alterations of Superman, Spider-Man and the Vision, among others.
Stéphane Garrelie: Well, each time i see a thread about Byrne here or a trade about Pad at the JBF, i know one thing for sure and its that my dream of a comicbook writen by Peter David with art by John Byrne is not for tomorow.
Mike O'Brien a long while later: I read through every post and nothing was said to make me believe PAD over John Byrne. Nice try though..
Just like Sir Bob Geldoff said many times, "taint nuthin but a laffbook fiasco and I don't like Mondays".
Goodnight.
