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arekuru (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} arekuru) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} fandom_wank,@ 2006-08-05 11:53:00 |
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Your sick obsession is making my obsession look sick by association!
I've been resisting posting this wank, not because it's not wanky (it definitely is) but because I've already wanked Zac a couple of times for his column before. (Are there any specific rules on that?) But when he posted a follow-up column, well...
Anime News Network's Zac Bertschy, previously seen encouraging a yaoi "debate" and slamming fansubs, does not like lolicon. At all. And he'd really like you to know it. So when he received a letter last week asking What's the deal with all this "lolicon" stuff? Zac decided to take advantage of the ready-made soap box.
The original letter and response:
In my sincere, honest opinion, there's really not a big difference between a so-called "lolicon"guys and straight-up pedophiles. In defense of the lolicon guys, yeah, there's no ACTUAL children being exploited but I find it hard to believe they're sincerely only attracted to drawings and would never lust after a real 8-year old. It's such a short step from getting off to a drawing of a child being raped versus a photo of a child being raped. Either way it completely sickens and disgusts me, but these guys prefer to split hairs.
[cut for length]
How would you like it if big media got a hold of this trend and decided to do a story on how anime fandom is a haven for pedophiles? Because I assure you it's probably only a matter of time before someone in the media catches a glimpse of some of these message board posts and decides to run a sensational story about pedophile anime fans. And then we all get tarred with that brush, and the next time you tell someone you're an anime fan, you get a much worse response than just a strange look. I make my living working with anime and the last thing I want is to tell someone what I do for a living and get a gasp followed by "Oh god, are you one of those pedophiles?". Just the thought of that happening scares the living crap out of me.
Personally, while I'd like to see lolicon stuff disappear completely - not banned, but simply not published, endorsed or purchased - that isn't likely to happen so for the time being I'd much rather it stay as far underground as possible. This recent trend of some fans - and I believe they are simply a very loud, very scary but very small minority - being so open about it on very public and visible forums sincerely worries me. It just isn't good for the art form, especially in America.
You can imagine how that went over. It sparked 36 pages of "discussion" on the boards which, for ANN, is one hell of a lot of pages.
Trust me when I say this isn't even close to half of it.
kensukeyura: I agree with what you said about bootlegs and lolicon 100%. Although I've never liked lolicon and think it's creepy, I didn't realize it was quite so big an issue until now. I hope the craze dies down before it does any real damage... not only to anime fans' reps, but also in real life. When a school shooting occurs, copycat school shootings follow; likewise, I think lolicon will desensitize people to real child pornography and child molestation. That's a sickening thing to imagine.
Steventheeunuch: My main problem with Lolicon and Moe is that well, as it gains popularity, there'll be less money for titles I like, which will lead to less titles being made that I like, and then it actually affecting properties that I like, like Transformers. Started off with ordinary Binaltech, which was great, but then they wanted to get more of an Anime market, so they threw in women. Didn't like that, but whatever. Now there's full-blown loli-models being sold with them and it's just very unnessecary, because they're obviously in sexual positions and what not. I want to buy these toys, but I don't want to support a market that I try my hardest to avoid.
Steroid: People like drawing lolicon. People like viewing lolicon. A closed circuit. In this circuit, human happiness in increased. That ought to be celebrated, not denounced.
mike.motaku: So "human happiness" is your all-purpose moral guideline? Replace "lolicon" with "puppies being raped with baseball bats" in your statement. Are you celebrating yet?
sabriyahm: Until this column I have heard people talking about moe but I thought it was excessive fan service. The idea that this is some sort of rising trend of kiddy porn is very unpleasant to me. Some of us have jobs and lives (I am a prosecutor) where we do not care to be tarnished with a kiddie porn brush. I dread the day when an article like that comes out.
minakichan: Yay for a lolicon-slam. I wish we could get more people to read this column, or at least that response. I mean, free expression and individual rights are one thing, but that also gives the rest of us a bad label.
maichips: But while we call the men who like Loli perverts and pedophiles, the young, 13-year-old Yaoi porn fans are just called "Yaoi fan girls." So which is worse: perverts liking Loli, or young girls perverting themselves?
JMays, ANN Associate Editor: If you would like to excuse yourself from society, do feel free to lock yourself in your room for the rest of your life. But as long as you plan on interacting with other humans, you may want to cut out the self-righteous "don't judge" crap. Of course, if you really believed what you wrote about not judging people, I doubt you'd be so defensive about it in an anime forum. Zac preys on your insecurities, and you react right on cue.
dormcat: What's this?! Using the fandom of a borderline, debatable issue (giving it lolicon, yaoi, fansubbing, etc.) as a prey?! Is ANN a predator of minority fandoms?!
Iritscen: OH MY GODZORS ITS PR0N Oh wait, it's beloved child hero Pippi Longstocking.
rkenshin21: I still wonder why shows like fullmetal Al with a young kid is lusted after by women. Im sorry but I am sick of just fanboys getting bad names. Apparently its a double standard in this extent. The idea that only little girls get lusted after in anime is pure grade A bull. I want to set the record strait that women lust after little anime boys. Have you seen Naruto's Sasuke fanservice? Please don't limit this afflictoin to just men. Its insulting!
burzmali: Read the glossary of a medical textbook. Pedophilia isn't considered a healthly mental state. The human body is wired to be attracted to potential mates (omitting sexual orientation which is a whole 'nother can of worms). By definition, pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children, i.e. not potential mates.
Steroid: To those who say that it's worth taking away lolicon to prevent potential rapes: having a modern, free society is not a panacea. Someday, when we're all immortals, it will be. For now, though, we have to choose whether it's really worth it. So here's my take, put bluntly: I think it's worth it to have children raped to have the free communication of sexual material. I'm not saying we should condone rape--when someone does it, let's find them and kill them--but I am saying that freedom, even of something unpopular and unproductive, is more valuable to me than safety.
Zac: WHAT in GOD'S NAME is WRONG with you people?! This is seriously like the quote of the century and I'm tempted to make it your avatar so you can be branded as having said this ABSOLUTELY INSANE CRAP every time you post here. Mother of god.
And it just. keeps. going.
But that's not the end of it. Oh no.
This week, Zac decides his last column was so "successful" he's going to devote this one entirely to the responses he got.
Zac's Intro:
Wow.
I think I managed to kick up more dust last week than I have in quite a long time. If you're wondering why I respond to controversial questions like that, it's because I think an open exchange and discussion and debate - even of things many of us just would rather ignore - is the healthiest possible way to solve problems or at least make our opinions known.
To that end, in this column I'm going to be printing many of the responses to last week's debate on lolicon. Some are straight from our forums, others are from my email box, with my thoughts or comments sprinkled lightly throughout, not unlike some kind of flame-baiting sundae.
Also, it's Otakon week and I don't even have time to think straight so we're just sticking to one issue this time and I'm letting some of you have a voice.
Why? To give people an understanding of why there's even a debate on this issue in the first place. Also, I want to get this all argued out before it becomes another yaoi/fansub topic that never goes away.
Zac prints four responses, 3 telling him how correct he is and one half-disagreeing which Zac then tears apart.
And the forums are off again...
I've been resisting posting this wank, not because it's not wanky (it definitely is) but because I've already wanked Zac a couple of times for his column before. (Are there any specific rules on that?) But when he posted a follow-up column, well...
Anime News Network's Zac Bertschy, previously seen encouraging a yaoi "debate" and slamming fansubs, does not like lolicon. At all. And he'd really like you to know it. So when he received a letter last week asking What's the deal with all this "lolicon" stuff? Zac decided to take advantage of the ready-made soap box.
The original letter and response:
In my sincere, honest opinion, there's really not a big difference between a so-called "lolicon"guys and straight-up pedophiles. In defense of the lolicon guys, yeah, there's no ACTUAL children being exploited but I find it hard to believe they're sincerely only attracted to drawings and would never lust after a real 8-year old. It's such a short step from getting off to a drawing of a child being raped versus a photo of a child being raped. Either way it completely sickens and disgusts me, but these guys prefer to split hairs.
[cut for length]
How would you like it if big media got a hold of this trend and decided to do a story on how anime fandom is a haven for pedophiles? Because I assure you it's probably only a matter of time before someone in the media catches a glimpse of some of these message board posts and decides to run a sensational story about pedophile anime fans. And then we all get tarred with that brush, and the next time you tell someone you're an anime fan, you get a much worse response than just a strange look. I make my living working with anime and the last thing I want is to tell someone what I do for a living and get a gasp followed by "Oh god, are you one of those pedophiles?". Just the thought of that happening scares the living crap out of me.
Personally, while I'd like to see lolicon stuff disappear completely - not banned, but simply not published, endorsed or purchased - that isn't likely to happen so for the time being I'd much rather it stay as far underground as possible. This recent trend of some fans - and I believe they are simply a very loud, very scary but very small minority - being so open about it on very public and visible forums sincerely worries me. It just isn't good for the art form, especially in America.
You can imagine how that went over. It sparked 36 pages of "discussion" on the boards which, for ANN, is one hell of a lot of pages.
Trust me when I say this isn't even close to half of it.
kensukeyura: I agree with what you said about bootlegs and lolicon 100%. Although I've never liked lolicon and think it's creepy, I didn't realize it was quite so big an issue until now. I hope the craze dies down before it does any real damage... not only to anime fans' reps, but also in real life. When a school shooting occurs, copycat school shootings follow; likewise, I think lolicon will desensitize people to real child pornography and child molestation. That's a sickening thing to imagine.
Steventheeunuch: My main problem with Lolicon and Moe is that well, as it gains popularity, there'll be less money for titles I like, which will lead to less titles being made that I like, and then it actually affecting properties that I like, like Transformers. Started off with ordinary Binaltech, which was great, but then they wanted to get more of an Anime market, so they threw in women. Didn't like that, but whatever. Now there's full-blown loli-models being sold with them and it's just very unnessecary, because they're obviously in sexual positions and what not. I want to buy these toys, but I don't want to support a market that I try my hardest to avoid.
Steroid: People like drawing lolicon. People like viewing lolicon. A closed circuit. In this circuit, human happiness in increased. That ought to be celebrated, not denounced.
mike.motaku: So "human happiness" is your all-purpose moral guideline? Replace "lolicon" with "puppies being raped with baseball bats" in your statement. Are you celebrating yet?
sabriyahm: Until this column I have heard people talking about moe but I thought it was excessive fan service. The idea that this is some sort of rising trend of kiddy porn is very unpleasant to me. Some of us have jobs and lives (I am a prosecutor) where we do not care to be tarnished with a kiddie porn brush. I dread the day when an article like that comes out.
minakichan: Yay for a lolicon-slam. I wish we could get more people to read this column, or at least that response. I mean, free expression and individual rights are one thing, but that also gives the rest of us a bad label.
maichips: But while we call the men who like Loli perverts and pedophiles, the young, 13-year-old Yaoi porn fans are just called "Yaoi fan girls." So which is worse: perverts liking Loli, or young girls perverting themselves?
JMays, ANN Associate Editor: If you would like to excuse yourself from society, do feel free to lock yourself in your room for the rest of your life. But as long as you plan on interacting with other humans, you may want to cut out the self-righteous "don't judge" crap. Of course, if you really believed what you wrote about not judging people, I doubt you'd be so defensive about it in an anime forum. Zac preys on your insecurities, and you react right on cue.
dormcat: What's this?! Using the fandom of a borderline, debatable issue (giving it lolicon, yaoi, fansubbing, etc.) as a prey?! Is ANN a predator of minority fandoms?!
Iritscen: OH MY GODZORS ITS PR0N Oh wait, it's beloved child hero Pippi Longstocking.
rkenshin21: I still wonder why shows like fullmetal Al with a young kid is lusted after by women. Im sorry but I am sick of just fanboys getting bad names. Apparently its a double standard in this extent. The idea that only little girls get lusted after in anime is pure grade A bull. I want to set the record strait that women lust after little anime boys. Have you seen Naruto's Sasuke fanservice? Please don't limit this afflictoin to just men. Its insulting!
burzmali: Read the glossary of a medical textbook. Pedophilia isn't considered a healthly mental state. The human body is wired to be attracted to potential mates (omitting sexual orientation which is a whole 'nother can of worms). By definition, pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children, i.e. not potential mates.
Steroid: To those who say that it's worth taking away lolicon to prevent potential rapes: having a modern, free society is not a panacea. Someday, when we're all immortals, it will be. For now, though, we have to choose whether it's really worth it. So here's my take, put bluntly: I think it's worth it to have children raped to have the free communication of sexual material. I'm not saying we should condone rape--when someone does it, let's find them and kill them--but I am saying that freedom, even of something unpopular and unproductive, is more valuable to me than safety.
Zac: WHAT in GOD'S NAME is WRONG with you people?! This is seriously like the quote of the century and I'm tempted to make it your avatar so you can be branded as having said this ABSOLUTELY INSANE CRAP every time you post here. Mother of god.
And it just. keeps. going.
But that's not the end of it. Oh no.
This week, Zac decides his last column was so "successful" he's going to devote this one entirely to the responses he got.
Zac's Intro:
Wow.
I think I managed to kick up more dust last week than I have in quite a long time. If you're wondering why I respond to controversial questions like that, it's because I think an open exchange and discussion and debate - even of things many of us just would rather ignore - is the healthiest possible way to solve problems or at least make our opinions known.
To that end, in this column I'm going to be printing many of the responses to last week's debate on lolicon. Some are straight from our forums, others are from my email box, with my thoughts or comments sprinkled lightly throughout, not unlike some kind of flame-baiting sundae.
Also, it's Otakon week and I don't even have time to think straight so we're just sticking to one issue this time and I'm letting some of you have a voice.
Why? To give people an understanding of why there's even a debate on this issue in the first place. Also, I want to get this all argued out before it becomes another yaoi/fansub topic that never goes away.
Zac prints four responses, 3 telling him how correct he is and one half-disagreeing which Zac then tears apart.
And the forums are off again...
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