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On Flying*pwned*Phoenix
In my curiousity I asked someone more objective if this asked for banning. It turned out they weren't that much more objective considered they said: No.
Plagiarsm or not I think people go way too far with e-mailing the staff of Phoenix Rising.
Considered despite it all they did stuff for HP-Fandom as well.
Their reply was:
I
disagree. Whatever they've done FOR fandom is overshadowed by what
they've done TO fandom. I can name people who DO for fandom, one of
them is Steve Vander Ark(hope I got that one right, I always foul it
up). He created the HPLexicon. He's given alot to fandom right there.
Another is Melissa at TLC, the ladies who founded SugarQuill, Metamuse
who runs SycophantHex and alot of other archive owners who run those
archives not for glory or fame but for the joy of having a place for
fanficcers to post fic. These folks founded FA so they could post their
plagiarised stuff and that it became good was DESPITE them, not BECAUSE
of them. They didn't do it for fandom, they did it for themselves.
There is a difference IMHO.
Plagiarsm or not I think people go way too far with e-mailing the staff of Phoenix Rising.
Considered despite it all they did stuff for HP-Fandom as well.
Their reply was:
My
first reaction was the same as yours, but I'm having second thoughts. I
was planning to go to Phoenix Rising and kicking in that extra $40
bucks for that luncheon. And after this news came out, I was thinking
maybe I shouldn't go at all, and definitely not go to the luncheon. If
the Phoenix Rising people are losing customers, they should know why.
On
the other hand, I suspect they're perfectly capable of keeping up with
fandom events themselves and don't need a lot of people emailing them
to inform them.
Considered despite it all they did stuff for HP-Fandom as well.
You
know, it's true, and people haven't talked a lot about it, that Heidi
has worked her ass off, and as far as I know, continues to do so, for
the Harry Potter fandom and Fiction Alley. Not to mention that I
suspect she's poured a lot of her own money into it, and probably still
does. If, for instance, she were to be removed as the head of Fiction
Alley, I'm not sure it would continue to exist. Certainly she has a lot
to tell in the context of fandom history, though from my recent
observations of her, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of confidence in her
ability to recount events accurately.
Ebony... eh. She has
contributed a lot to the fandom as well, but not nearly as much as
Heidi has, and most of what she has done has been with Heidi,
so she doesn't offer that much to a panel that already has Heidi on it.
The only thing I can think of that she did separately from Heidi is
found Pumpkinpie.org, which was for one ship only, fairly short-lived,
and never very big. From what I've seen, she's a good public speaker,
though.
I just wish they'd do the obvious right thing: agree
that plagiarism is wrong, apologize for not taking enough care in their
own fanfictions, and change their disclaimers to fully cite all their
borrowings (or remove their fics). I'd also like it if Fiction Alley
changed their Intellectual Property Rights rules so that someone other
than the copyright holder or their authorized representative could make
a complaint about plagiarism.
If they did those things, I would
happily attend Phoenix Rising and buy a ticket to a luncheon where they
speak. But if they don't (and PR doesn't withdraw their invitations),
I'll have a decision to make.
I disagree. Whatever they've done FOR fandom is overshadowed by what they've done TO fandom.
You
agree to e-mail the staff of Phoenix_Rising and publishers to harm
them? Isn't that against JF rules or did that suddenly change?
I
can name people who DO for fandom, one of them is Steve Vander Ark(hope
I got that one right, I always foul it up). He created the HPLexicon.
He's given alot to fandom right there. Another is Melissa at TLC, the
ladies who founded SugarQuill, Metamuse who runs SycophantHex and alot
of other archive owners who run those archives not for glory or fame
but for the joy of having a place for fanficcers to post fic. These
folks founded FA so they could post their plagiarised stuff and that it
became good was DESPITE them, not BECAUSE of them. They didn't do it
for fandom, they did it for themselves. There is a difference IMHO.
That's
your take and your right to have this opinion but its taking things too
far e-mailing phoenix_rising etc just to get them kicked out. Thats not
what this wank is about.
FictionAlley no matter how much I
actually dislike that site and I do dislike it, it also offered so many
people in this fandom a place. It is just wrong to talk this down
because they posted plagiarsed fanfics.
Aside I'd count Portkey under that sites you mentioned just because.
Their reply was:
You
are assuming of course that it is Bad_Penny posters who contacted the
con. Some of these authors are now aware of the plagiarism involved,
how do you know it wasn't them who contacted the con staff? I
understand not wanting to take this to the extremes of contacting
employers or the bar association... and it's certainly not my fight (or
my fandom)...
.... but significant other has a lot of experiance
running cons and being a guest at a con comes with a lot of perks, some
monitary some not, and in this case they are gained in part through the
fan activities being called into question. My theory about Heidi has
been that she wrote fanfic as a way to "pay her dues" so to speak
before going onto other activities that she enjoyed more. But if in
this fandom writing fic is part of paying dues, than she wrote a bad
check.
I disagree. Whatever they've done FOR fandom is overshadowed by what they've done TO fandom.
You
agree to e-mail the staff of Phoenix_Rising and publishers to harm
them? Isn't that against JF rules or did that suddenly change?
I
can name people who DO for fandom, one of them is Steve Vander Ark(hope
I got that one right, I always foul it up). He created the HPLexicon.
He's given alot to fandom right there. Another is Melissa at TLC, the
ladies who founded SugarQuill, Metamuse who runs SycophantHex and alot
of other archive owners who run those archives not for glory or fame
but for the joy of having a place for fanficcers to post fic. These
folks founded FA so they could post their plagiarised stuff and that it
became good was DESPITE them, not BECAUSE of them. They didn't do it
for fandom, they did it for themselves. There is a difference IMHO.
That's
your take and your right to have this opinion but its taking things too
far e-mailing phoenix_rising etc just to get them kicked out. Thats not
what this wank is about.
FictionAlley no matter how much I
actually dislike that site and I do dislike it, it also offered so many
people in this fandom a place. It is just wrong to talk this down
because they posted plagiarsed fanfics.
Aside I'd count Portkey under that sites you mentioned just because.
Their reply was:
First
off I didn't email the PhoenixRising people. I pretty much decided on
CC's book not to waste money purchasing it. But I've done nothing else.
However PhoenixRising is a Harry Potter Con and yes the organisers are
aware of the situation. Consider this, some of them probably have JF
accts too. I don't know who sent email and I am not going to try and
find out either, the organisers know, and probably knew before the mail
got sent.
FictionAlley may have offered people a place but it
always struck me as a place where certain opinions counted more than
others. I failed to mention Portkey as an archive, for that I
apologise. I also failed to mention the many slash archives out there
such as Ink Stained Fingers run by Diana Williams. Thing is the
majority of archive owners are not in it for some sort of fame and
glory, they're in it for the fic and the fandom.
I personally
feel sorry for the con organisers. They are in a terrible position
here. They have to decide if it is worthwhile to keep these people on
the agenda or whether they should uninvite them. It's a lousy
situation. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the plagiarists in this. I
don't think they deserve any.
Its easily to figure considered people talked on Bad_Penny to contact them in the first place.
Their reply was:
So are you accusing the users or the mice here?
Seeing
as B_P does not ENCOURAGE this sort of crap - indeed, it ACTIVELY
DISCOURAGES IT - what, pray tell, do you want people to do here?
I
personally feel sorry for the con organisers. They are in a terrible
position here. They have to decide if it is worthwhile to keep these
people on the agenda or whether they should uninvite them. It's a lousy
situation. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the plagiarists in this. I
don't think they deserve any.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this because I'm sorry for Heidi or Ebony because I'm certainly not. But it is plainly giving Bad_Penny
or JF communities too much power if at hands of wanks people are
affected in real life and this whole con is a real life thing.
I
don't like this and is too me even more wrong then plagiarsm. This is a
place to wank and to my knowledge not a place to decide: "Oh lets do
something about that" and have even success with that.
I'm not comfortable with that...in fact I find this downright scary.
Their reply was:
This
is a place to wank and to my knowledge not a place to decide: "Oh lets
do something about that" and have even success with that.
That's very true.
That would be why b_p actively discourages that kind of shit.
The mods have made that crystal-clear many, many times.
Why
is that difficult to grasp? Are you wailing at the mods to take the
wank down, or just wringing your hands in despair at the state of
fandom or what?
I
personally feel sorry for the con organisers. They are in a terrible
position here. They have to decide if it is worthwhile to keep these
people on the agenda or whether they should uninvite them. It's a lousy
situation. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the plagiarists in this. I
don't think they deserve any.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this because I'm sorry for Heidi or Ebony because I'm certainly not. But it is plainly giving Bad_Penny
or JF communities too much power if at hands of wanks people are
affected in real life and this whole con is a real life thing.
I
don't like this and is too me even more wrong then plagiarsm. This is a
place to wank and to my knowledge not a place to decide: "Oh lets do
something about that" and have even success with that.
I'm not comfortable with that...in fact I find this downright scary.
Their reply was:
I
do have mixed feelings about what has happened, just like I have mixed
feelings about the thread on CC publishers forums. It should be made
clear, however, that a fandom con is not real life, writing to their jobs would be real life.
Its easily to figure considered people talked on Bad_Penny to contact them in the first place.
Their reply was:
It's
easy to figure that people who've been told repeatedly by the B_P mods
not to do this kind of thing have done the opposite? I'm not entirely
sure what you think you are getting at... but it doesn't make a lot of
sense.
There are lots of people reading this community who
aren't posting to it, and there are likely many people who are going to
that con who are reading this community... are you saying that people
who were going to attend the con don't have the right to express
concerns?
Its easily to figure considered people talked on Bad_Penny to contact them in the first place.
Their reply was:
Subject: Put up or shut up.
If
you have proof of a poster on B_P saying s/he's going to contact the
Phoenix Rising people, or encouraging others to do so, link to it.
If you don't, shut the hell up with the "It's easy to figure" bullshit.
Ebony...
eh. She has contributed a lot to the fandom as well, but not nearly as
much as Heidi has, and most of what she has done has been with Heidi,
so she doesn't offer that much to a panel that already has Heidi on it.
The only thing I can think of that she did separately from Heidi is
found Pumpkinpie.org, which was for one ship only, fairly short-lived,
and never very big. From what I've seen, she's a good public speaker,
though.
But that was already before all this happened clear,
no? I do understand if people won't go there but then again if I had
the money in the first place I didn't visit that either for other
reasons. There are certainly enough people who don't like Melissa or
none of the three known members of this fandom yet I doubt people going
to mass e-mail them this guests aren't all that 100% loved by fandom
either.
They do it now because they want harm them because of the entries on Bad_penny and thats to me just wrong. Its overstepping the line between a wank, fandom and real life.
You
know, it's true, and people haven't talked a lot about it, that Heidi
has worked her ass off, and as far as I know, continues to do so, for
the Harry Potter fandom and Fiction Alley. Not to mention that I
suspect she's poured a lot of her own money into it, and probably still
does. If, for instance, she were to be removed as the head of Fiction
Alley, I'm not sure it would continue to exist. Certainly she has a lot
to tell in the context of fandom history, though from my recent
observations of her, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of confidence in her
ability to recount events accurately.
I doubt she'll discuss the plagiarsm issue with FanFiction.net.
I
just wish they'd do the obvious right thing: agree that plagiarism is
wrong, apologize for not taking enough care in their own fanfictions,
and change their disclaimers to fully cite all their borrowings (or
remove their fics). I'd also like it if Fiction Alley changed their
Intellectual Property Rights rules so that someone other than the
copyright holder or their authorized representative could make a
complaint about plagiarism.
I agree with that though I
doubt that will ever happen. I dunno but I think they have a general
notion to disagree with any argument or idea one might come up.
If
they did those things, I would happily attend Phoenix Rising and buy a
ticket to a luncheon where they speak. But if they don't (and PR
doesn't withdraw their invitations), I'll have a decision to make.
Well...if
we are bit evil there what hurts more to a proud person? Being kicked
from a guest list because people e-mailed the staff of Phoenix Rusing
at hands of entries on JF or facing an empty room in New Orleans? I
think the later one.
Their reply was:
But that was already before all this happened clear, no?
True.
I guess I wonder why they'd have her as an honored fandom guest when
she's no longer in the fandom, as she often points out herself. But, as
you say, that has nothing to do with the current topic.
Its easily to figure considered people talked on Bad_Penny to contact them in the first place.
Their reply was:
Question: Do the people who run the con not use LJ? Or even the internet, period?
These days, it's kind of hard to go anywhere online without someone saying "omg, did you hear about the harry potter people?!!?"
Its easily to figure considered people talked on Bad_Penny to contact them in the first place.
Their reply was:
Got proof of that?
I
personally feel sorry for the con organisers. They are in a terrible
position here. They have to decide if it is worthwhile to keep these
people on the agenda or whether they should uninvite them. It's a lousy
situation. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the plagiarists in this. I
don't think they deserve any.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this because I'm sorry for Heidi or Ebony because I'm certainly not. But it is plainly giving Bad_Penny
or JF communities too much power if at hands of wanks people are
affected in real life and this whole con is a real life thing.
I
don't like this and is too me even more wrong then plagiarsm. This is a
place to wank and to my knowledge not a place to decide: "Oh lets do
something about that" and have even success with that.
I'm not comfortable with that...in fact I find this downright scary.
Their reply was:
No
the con is NOT a RL thing. The con is about fandom. People do not make
a career out of guesting at cons, not unless you're a Star Trek actor.
This is not their careers. This is fandom.
The other stuff?
Well b_p shut off anons because the mice wanted to contact publishers,
and such. PJ has been very discouraging of this sort of behavior. What
more can she do here?
I
personally feel sorry for the con organisers. They are in a terrible
position here. They have to decide if it is worthwhile to keep these
people on the agenda or whether they should uninvite them. It's a lousy
situation. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the plagiarists in this. I
don't think they deserve any.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this because I'm sorry for Heidi or Ebony because I'm certainly not. But it is plainly giving Bad_Penny
or JF communities too much power if at hands of wanks people are
affected in real life and this whole con is a real life thing.
I
don't like this and is too me even more wrong then plagiarsm. This is a
place to wank and to my knowledge not a place to decide: "Oh lets do
something about that" and have even success with that.
I'm not comfortable with that...in fact I find this downright scary.
Their reply was:
What
exactly do you want done then? We've been telling people to behave and
since the mice haven't anon is off. You're barely making sense [and I
can make huge allowances for language differences]. What else are we
supposed to do? You're starting to wank here instead of participate in
any discussion.
Pray
tell me where I sad that B_P encouraged that? It is a fact that several
people prefer to ignore the rules of JF and do stuff they really
shouldn't.
Their reply was:
So go after THEM.
I'm
pretty aware that the Mods made it clear yet this didn't stop this
people, now did it? There is only so much they can do like banning,
screening etc but they can't stop what crazy people chose to do at
hands of an entry.
That's my point if I pretend its all dandy,
this wank got no negative effects I did lie and approve this kind of
behaviour which gives this people who contact publishers etc even more
reason to act like that in the first place.
It's up to us all and not just the Mods to be disapproving of that. That they won't win the golden wanker award with this.
There
are lots of people reading this community who aren't posting to it, and
there are likely many people who are going to that con who are reading
this community... are you saying that people who were going to attend
the con don't have the right to express concerns?
Concerns? That aren't concerns but a way to get back at Ebony and Heidi for their plagiarsm...kinda like self-justice.
Their reply was:
I'm
not quite sure I still understand your point. You are not arguing with
people you are making accusations that so far you have not proven. As
far as I can see this is just acting as an apologist for people who did do something wrong and making accusations at vague parties that you do not know if they did something wrong.
PR was mentioned here as far as I'm concerned.
Their reply was:
You know your standard of proof is bizarre to me?
http://www.journalfen.net/community/bad_penny/11600.html?thread=3236944#t3236944
What is this Phoenix Rising thing? Someone should do something about that...
I don't want some sort of revenge, but I think we have the right to work hard for fandom awareness over them.
There you go.
Their reply was:
And
if you look at the next post where the mice got turned off, you will
find the same poster apologising for the comment made there. And I
notice you replied commented in that thread also.
http://www.journalfen.net/community/bad_penny/11945.html
Pray
tell me where I sad that B_P encouraged that? It is a fact that several
people prefer to ignore the rules of JF and do stuff they really
shouldn't.
Their reply was:
So whine about them, not the comm. DUH.
http://www.journalfen.net/community/bad_penny/11600.html?thread=3236944#t3236944
What is this Phoenix Rising thing? Someone should do something about that...
I don't want some sort of revenge, but I think we have the right to work hard for fandom awareness over them.
There you go.
Their reply was:
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up.
One person, promptly told 'no'.
OH MY GOD SOMEONE QUARANTINE US ALL.
You're such a drama-slut.
You asked for proof, you got them. If they apologised after that is for this point less important
Their reply was:
Sure it is.
Drama slut.
http://www.journalfen.net/community/bad_penny/11600.html?thread=3236944#t3236944
What is this Phoenix Rising thing? Someone should do something about that...
I don't want some sort of revenge, but I think we have the right to work hard for fandom awareness over them.
There you go.
Their reply was:
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up.
You really are the weakest link.
Because you ignored this post.
And this one, here.
People have been smacked down. The 'mice are being collectively punished for the stupidity of a handful.
If you'd linked to a comment I hadn't smacked down on, you'd have a point. You didn't, therefore, you don't.
You had a point if I claimed you didn't smack them down in the first place but alas I didn't.
Their reply was:
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up.
You sure as shit implied it.
You're gone, Schweinehund.
http://www.journalfen.net/community/bad_penny/11600.html?thread=3236944#t3236944
What is this Phoenix Rising thing? Someone should do something about that...
I don't want some sort of revenge, but I think we have the right to work hard for fandom awareness over them.
There you go.
Their reply was:
I think it can be reasonably argued that the person(s) who contacted Phoenix Rising read Bad_Penny at some point.
Is
there any evidence that the person(s) who contacted Phoenix Rising were
*not* fee-paying attendees of that event? In my opinion, anyone who is
asking for a refund has the right to explain why.
I really doubt you have an idea what Heidi did for this fandom as well. Her fic is a very "minor" point if at all.
Nevertheless
Fandom_Wank or Bad_Penny is not there to start and treat people and
start to e-mail staff, publisher etc. to harm people.
Their reply was:
You
know, that actually does interest me a lot. Really, not snarky here -
but people keep saying Heidi's done so much for the fandom, but haven't
come up with examples that didn't carry their own reward, such as
prestige, press, fame, con invites whatnot - I'd really like to know.
Ebony...
eh. She has contributed a lot to the fandom as well, but not nearly as
much as Heidi has, and most of what she has done has been with Heidi,
so she doesn't offer that much to a panel that already has Heidi on it.
The only thing I can think of that she did separately from Heidi is
found Pumpkinpie.org, which was for one ship only, fairly short-lived,
and never very big. From what I've seen, she's a good public speaker,
though.
But that was already before all this happened clear,
no? I do understand if people won't go there but then again if I had
the money in the first place I didn't visit that either for other
reasons. There are certainly enough people who don't like Melissa or
none of the three known members of this fandom yet I doubt people going
to mass e-mail them this guests aren't all that 100% loved by fandom
either.
They do it now because they want harm them because of the entries on Bad_penny and thats to me just wrong. Its overstepping the line between a wank, fandom and real life.
You
know, it's true, and people haven't talked a lot about it, that Heidi
has worked her ass off, and as far as I know, continues to do so, for
the Harry Potter fandom and Fiction Alley. Not to mention that I
suspect she's poured a lot of her own money into it, and probably still
does. If, for instance, she were to be removed as the head of Fiction
Alley, I'm not sure it would continue to exist. Certainly she has a lot
to tell in the context of fandom history, though from my recent
observations of her, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of confidence in her
ability to recount events accurately.
I doubt she'll discuss the plagiarsm issue with FanFiction.net.
I
just wish they'd do the obvious right thing: agree that plagiarism is
wrong, apologize for not taking enough care in their own fanfictions,
and change their disclaimers to fully cite all their borrowings (or
remove their fics). I'd also like it if Fiction Alley changed their
Intellectual Property Rights rules so that someone other than the
copyright holder or their authorized representative could make a
complaint about plagiarism.
I agree with that though I
doubt that will ever happen. I dunno but I think they have a general
notion to disagree with any argument or idea one might come up.
If
they did those things, I would happily attend Phoenix Rising and buy a
ticket to a luncheon where they speak. But if they don't (and PR
doesn't withdraw their invitations), I'll have a decision to make.
Well...if
we are bit evil there what hurts more to a proud person? Being kicked
from a guest list because people e-mailed the staff of Phoenix Rusing
at hands of entries on JF or facing an empty room in New Orleans? I
think the later one.
Their reply was:
They
do it now because they want harm them because of the entries on
Bad_penny and thats to me just wrong. Its overstepping the line between
a wank, fandom and real life.
First off, Phoenix Rising? Is
fandom. It's a fandom-related event. So if you're separating fandom
from real-life, your argument doesn't work.
Second, you're
missing the point that this has gone way beyond HP fandom. Do you know
how I found out about the first Cassie post on BP? A professional
editor on my LJ friends list posted about it. I didn't have BP friended
at the time. Yes, technically, you can say that people found out from
Bad Penny, but given how widely this news has been disseminated, no one
posting here would have had to email anyone for the people affiliated
with the con to find out that there might be an issue here.
I
personally feel sorry for the con organisers. They are in a terrible
position here. They have to decide if it is worthwhile to keep these
people on the agenda or whether they should uninvite them. It's a lousy
situation. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the plagiarists in this. I
don't think they deserve any.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this because I'm sorry for Heidi or Ebony because I'm certainly not. But it is plainly giving Bad_Penny
or JF communities too much power if at hands of wanks people are
affected in real life and this whole con is a real life thing.
I
don't like this and is too me even more wrong then plagiarsm. This is a
place to wank and to my knowledge not a place to decide: "Oh lets do
something about that" and have even success with that.
I'm not comfortable with that...in fact I find this downright scary.
Their reply was:
But
it is plainly giving Bad_Penny or JF communities too much power if at
hands of wanks people are affected in real life and this whole con is a
real life thing.
Fandom does not equal the internet. Fandom
existed long before the internet. This con is a fannish thing, not a
"real life" thing. That would be jobs or family.
Furthermore, if
people have chosen to e-mail the con organizers, I don't see how that's
the fault of this community or Journalfen. It almost sounds like you're
saying that this stuff never should have been posted at all, because
people might discuss it and others might have to face consequences. So
when anything remotely controversial comes up know one should say
anything for fear of what a few people will do? Now, that really would
be giving JF communities too much power.
What was my point? This entry about how Phoenix Rising reacted shouldn't have been posted in the first place because that is encouraging. Anyway a simple reasonable STOP would have worked on me too...you know.
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flyingphoenix) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small}
harmonywank,
