(Post a new comment)

	onetrickpony 2004-07-02 11:33 pm UTC (link)
	sheepish Erm, actually didn't get past the OP's Bill Bailey icon. But totally appreciated that, if not the wank itself... (Reply to this)

	ladybirdsleeps 2004-07-02 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	If you think that's exciting, you should see the ebonics wanks on linguaphiles. (Reply to this)

	llama_treats 2004-07-03 12:11 am UTC (link)
	So, if I'm interpreting ladybirdsleeps correctly, if I decide I want to speak Klingon in my office, that's just hunky-dory because it has a grammar so it is no less valid than English. Uh-huh. Qapla to you! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	ladybirdsleeps 2004-07-03 12:15 am UTC (link)
	Actually, that's not my point at all. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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llama_treats, 2004-07-03 12:25 am UTC

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ladybirdsleeps, 2004-07-03 12:32 am UTC

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notjo, 2004-07-03 02:32 am UTC

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vassilissa, 2004-07-04 05:45 am UTC

	iczer6 2004-07-03 12:12 am UTC (link)
	Yes because how DARE people insist that others act and speak professionally at their job! That's RACIST! It is! really.... (Reply to this)

ladybirdsleeps
2004-07-03 12:21 am UTC (link)

I know that this is wanky, but I can already see that I haven't communicated my point clearly and oh, it grates to be misunderstood. So, for the record:

I don't think that

tviokh is a racist.
I don't think that people shouldn't be expected to speak "standard" English at work. (I'm undecided, as I said.)

I just think that we should stop looking down on people who speak AAVE.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	llama_treats 2004-07-03 12:30 am UTC (link)
	Heh. You pretty much answered my above question here, so please ignore the one above. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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ladybirdsleeps, 2004-07-03 12:32 am UTC

circumstance
2004-07-03 12:40 am UTC (link)

I'm with you on this one. The assumption

tviokh (and Bill Cosby) seem to be making is not just that people should speak Standard English in professional settings (which I more or less agree with, as we do need to understand one another), but that people who speak AAVE are stupid, crude, or inferior.

Is AAVE a derivative of Standard English? Sure. Just like modern Standard English is a derivative of Old English, which is a derivative of Proto-Germanic, which is a derivative of Indo-European. Language constantly changes, and there's nothing about AAVE as a dialect that makes it linguistically inferior to Standard.

So what I mean to say is: word.

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ladybirdsleeps, 2004-07-03 01:14 am UTC

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uniquesnowflake
2004-07-03 12:36 am UTC (link)

The only wanking I see here is the fact that some people would rather force their opinions of what is superior upon others. The only thing ladybirdsleeps is doing is pointing out things that are acceptably factual.

I have a Swedish general practitioner, an Indian endocrinologist, and an Iranian dentist. I occassionally need them to repeat a question because they have a thick accent, but that does not lessen my respect for their intelligence. Should they have to learn to speak with a General American accent because others find this more comfortable and acceptable? Are they not equally talented and educated, either way?

People in the Bayou speak a mixture of French and English, as well as other languages. A lot of people on the America-Mexico border speak Spanglish. This does not make them inherently stupid. This was the way they were taught to speak by their parents and their communities. It is NOT a problem to be "solved".

What of an English accent? An Australian accent? What kind of perceptions do people have about these? What about in countries other than your own?

I frequently speak in Italian vernacular. This makes a lot of people uncomfortable, because they percieve it as grotesque or less intelligent-- however, I consider myself suitably intelligent.

The problem is not the "difference", no matter where you are. The problem is the prejudice itself. It IS a prejudice. You have a negative, pre-existing perception of the behavior or speech pattern and this is not the fault of the speaker.

This post doesn't really have a big reason to be here. Many more intelligent people than us have argued the point and come out, it might be noted, with the same answer. A fact that ladybirdsleeps is pointing out.

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wankprophet, 2004-07-03 12:56 am UTC

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uniquesnowflake, 2004-07-03 01:02 am UTC

*hopes I say this clearly...* - meshou, 2004-07-03 02:23 am UTC

Re: *hopes I say this clearly...* -

elijahdprophet, 2004-07-09 07:58 pm UTC

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notjo, 2004-07-03 02:31 am UTC

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wankprophet, 2004-07-03 03:00 am UTC

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uniquesnowflake, 2004-07-03 04:36 pm UTC

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wankprophet, 2004-07-03 04:47 pm UTC

Listen to me spout sociology out of my ass. -

beccastareyes, 2004-07-03 02:33 am UTC

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misswindy, 2004-07-07 07:53 am UTC

wankprophet
2004-07-03 12:48 am UTC (link)

Chreezus. This old argument again? While I can understand the arguments concerning the socioeconomic origins -- and, some claim, the West African origins -- of AAVE, it remains indisputable that AAVE is, in fact, a degeneration of virtually any form of "standard" English one can name. It's not simply a regional idiom...it's quite recognizable as standard English that has undergone a sea change, and not for the better. Language is mutable, and in constant metamorphasis, but there are various forces that influence and nudge the transformations, and some are decidedly issues of socio-economic omission rather than cultural comission.

For instance, the Great Vowel Shift is an example of how language evolves, and any modern-day speaker would be hard-pressed to understand half of what a 14th century speaker was saying. This is a linguistic inevitability, as is the sort of change that takes place as the language adapts itself to changing socio-political, economic and technological conditions. Hence, Shakespeare's English proves difficult to modern speakers, and our English would be quite baffling to an Elizabethan-era speaker. This is in no way similar to the rise of vernaculars that occur when education and social pressures cause the standard variants to be incompletely articulated and learned. AAVE, while actually quite interesting to read and hear, and can be considered a cultural artifact worthy of preserving, isn't simply validated because "it's their choice." No, it's really, really not. It's a learned behaviour that, as Cosby rightly pointed out, inhibits its speakers when the dominant paradigm is, and always has been, and probably always will be, markedly different. Crying foul is foolish when communicative abilities have always been a standard criterion for success. If one is incapable of communicating with the general populace, especially the portion of the populace who can help you succeed, one is going to be at a disadvantage, and requiring that the rest of the population accomodate you rather than you learning to deal with them is neither feasible nor rationale in such cases where behavior is learned rather than innate (hence disability requires accomodation.)

This perspective of "it's a personal preference so handsoffomg u r so bigoted" is more than a little self-righteous and silly. Merely exposing the mechanics of certain forms of AAVE doesn't legitimize it, any more than exposing the mechanics of why someone mispronounces "flaccid" or continually uses "like" as an interjection legitimize them. The fact that AAVE is filled with mispronunciations, dropped words, fragmentary and often insensible phrasing, lack of lucid diction, et cetera is sufficient reason to consider it an inhibitive form of communication in most contexts. Certainly, no-one is -- or should be -- arguing that one can dictate how a person speaks, especially in a social setting. I speak with a slight Southern accent, myself, but that doesn't interfere with my communicative abilities, nor does it affect my diction or grammar. AAVE isn't simply an accent -- it's a systematic devolvement of the language. Make no mistake: I'm not arguing that vernacular and shifts in grammatical rules are inherently bad, nor am I interested in trying to maintain a set of immutable standards for English. That would be silly, given the way the language constantly changes. But teaching children to communicate in a way that eschews many of the general patterns of the language interferes greatly with their ability to interact with others outside a very circumscribed social and economic grouping. And given that, whether certain people think so or not, AAVE is symptomatic of poor education (I can't see how someone could seriously argue otherwise with even a smidgen of knowledge about its history), arguing that the prejudice against the person somehow makes the non-acceptance of the vernacular wrong is a fatuous argument. Telling someone that they needn't work on improving their communicative skills in order to reach success and then saying they won't achieve said success because the general population doesn't accept the vernacular is a tad bizarre. Idealistic, yes, but not the bright sort of idealism.

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uniquesnowflake, 2004-07-03 12:58 am UTC

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circumstance, 2004-07-03 01:05 am UTC

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circumstance, 2004-07-03 03:14 am UTC

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ladybirdsleeps, 2004-07-03 04:01 am UTC

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wankprophet, 2004-07-03 04:33 pm UTC

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uniquesnowflake, 2004-07-03 04:51 pm UTC

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nolifeking, 2004-07-03 05:14 pm UTC

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wankprophet, 2004-07-03 06:10 pm UTC

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puipui, 2004-07-03 05:13 am UTC

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puipui, 2004-07-03 05:49 am UTC

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puipui, 2004-07-03 05:52 am UTC

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elanor_durall, 2004-07-03 02:43 pm UTC

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wankprophet, 2004-07-03 04:11 pm UTC

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elanor_durall, 2004-07-03 07:40 pm UTC

Kinda just goes to prove my point, really, doesn't it? -

puipui, 2004-07-03 05:43 am UTC

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uniquesnowflake, 2004-07-03 04:55 pm UTC

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puipui, 2004-07-04 05:37 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-10-22 06:33 pm UTC

*beats head against table repeatedly*

circumstance
2004-07-03 01:20 am UTC (link)

Also? This comment:

Blacks blame us for their problems all the time and I'm sick of it...

Not only that, but I've only known a few blacks that didn't have a MAJOR attitude problem. I watch black mothers with their kids, and I can't believe the kind of hostility they have in their families either.

And, of course, whites have their problems too, but with blacks their problems seem to be the standard, which is the problem.

Ooooh, okay, whites have problems too. For a minute there, I was going to be appalled at how racist your comment was...

...

*explodes*

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Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

melange, 2004-07-03 01:46 am UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

tviokh, 2004-07-03 02:37 am UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

ashenmote, 2004-07-03 08:26 am UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

darkrose, 2004-07-03 03:27 am UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

iczer6, 2004-07-03 04:56 am UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

kookaburra, 2004-07-03 09:33 am UTC

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kyuuketsukirui, 2004-07-03 11:09 am UTC

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kookaburra, 2004-07-03 05:22 pm UTC

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kyuuketsukirui, 2004-07-04 12:56 am UTC

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ladysorka, 2004-07-03 10:58 pm UTC

Norweigian, yes... -

kyuuketsukirui, 2004-07-04 12:58 am UTC

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starkeymonster, 2004-07-04 01:36 am UTC

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elanor_durall, 2004-07-04 01:28 pm UTC

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starkeymonster, 2004-07-04 01:32 am UTC

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gal_montag, 2004-07-09 06:37 am UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

loonylupinlover, 2004-07-03 06:10 pm UTC

Re: *beats head against table repeatedly* -

kookaburra, 2004-07-04 01:23 am UTC

	Re: As you wish... shoiryu 2004-07-03 01:25 am UTC (link)
	Languages evolve. In a couple hundred years the language we know as English is going to be something completely different. It'll sound different, be pronounced differently, use different words, and so on. English didn't just pop up out of nowhere fully formed; it's one of the most bastardized languages around. We take words from all over the place! (Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: As you wish... -

wankprophet, 2004-07-03 04:19 am UTC

	elanor_durall 2004-07-03 01:36 am UTC (link)
	Wow. Now that is something. Witness! how the point flies over people's heads. Behold! the knee-jerk omg im not racist ... BUT I have this awful feeling that if I keep reading, people will start whining about "reverse-discrimination." Hehe. To Ladybirdsleeps: Word. WORD. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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tviokh, 2004-07-03 02:40 am UTC

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ashenmote, 2004-07-03 09:16 pm UTC

	doyle 2004-07-03 01:40 am UTC (link)
	Has there ever been an Ulster Scots language wank? Because I've seen some very heated real-life discussions and there's fantastic splooge potential there... (Reply to this)(Thread)

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darthfi, 2004-07-03 10:52 am UTC

	feloniousfeline 2004-07-03 07:05 am UTC (link)
	No offense to anyone, but personally, I'd rather not be in the middle of a pap smear and have my gynocologist "ax" me a question. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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oysteria, 2004-07-03 08:34 pm UTC

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feloniousfeline, 2004-07-03 09:13 pm UTC

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oysteria, 2004-07-03 10:59 pm UTC

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	ladysorka 2004-07-03 08:06 am UTC (link)
	Um... raises hand Please excuse the ignorant lily-white (I resent that, my skin is pink, damnit) redhead who grew up in small-town Wisconsin... What's AAVE? The wank coming from inside the house is confusing me, and I want to understand! (Reply to this)(Thread)

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doyle, 2004-07-03 12:29 pm UTC

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elanor_durall, 2004-07-03 08:05 pm UTC

	(Anonymous) 2004-07-03 02:01 pm UTC (link)
	note to all, it doesn't matter, I'm going to erradicate the human race after I get my Phd in God-hood. ps, when you're making noises like a sphinchter moving packages faster than fedex, it's not going to sound intellegent even if you're sporting an IQ over 200. _{flame away, it doesn't bother me at all.} (Reply to this)(Thread)

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funkyhelix, 2004-07-03 04:24 pm UTC

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ecchaniz0r, 2004-07-03 04:43 pm UTC

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calluna, 2004-07-03 05:22 pm UTC

	sorchar 2004-07-03 03:35 pm UTC (link)
	WTF, people? This comm is for MOCKING the wank, not re-enacting it. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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sunhawk, 2004-07-03 04:31 pm UTC

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isntitironic, 2004-07-03 05:52 pm UTC

Re: -

sorchar, 2004-07-03 09:31 pm UTC

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ashenmote, 2004-07-03 06:43 pm UTC

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sorchar, 2004-07-03 09:32 pm UTC

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ashenmote, 2004-07-03 09:44 pm UTC

	mydruthers 2004-07-03 05:32 pm UTC (link)
	omg dont makke fun of mah enlish u rascist (Reply to this)(Thread)

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visp, 2004-07-04 02:52 am UTC

mael
2004-07-03 07:07 pm UTC (link)

To try and bypass the racial issues and concentrate on the linguistic ones, well, let me offer the outsider's opinion.

Italy has been a splintered little boot of land since the fall of the Roman empire some sixteen centuries ago. Latin evolved, everybody and their grandmother invaded us, and scholars tried to keep our so called culture together. They tried to hold on to what they felt were our roots, Rome and her greatness, but by the time Dante came along it was apparent that the new dialects were there to stay. So they picked one particular dialect, Florentine in origin, and called it "Volgare", literally 'vulgar', and went with it. That dialect is basically modern italian. Note that it is *not* some natural evolution of our language. It was hand-picked, polished and preserved by the cultured upper class as the somehow acceptable, if inferior, companion to latin.

Now, did anybody actually *speak* 'Italian'? Not really.

Then came the Risorgimento and we finally decided that we hated foreign rulers more than we hated each other. Now, Italy is finally reunited and independent; one monarch, one currency, one set of laws. Sure, but does a Sicialian understand a Venetian? Absolutely not. Enter compulsory education.

Present day. Every Italian citizen *should* be able to properly speak Italian. Most people born before the fascist regime cannot, unless they came from a noble and/or rich background. Them I can understand. But when a young person seems utterly UNABLE to grasp basic Italian then I see a problem. And a big one.

For me it is not a question of superior or inferior language (and therefore of superior or inferior *people*). Not at all. Nothing makes Italian inherently any better than Trentino dialect, for example.

Speaking a dialect does not make you uneducated. Speaking nothing BUT a dialect does. And for uneducated I do not mean inferior or unintelligent. NOT AT ALL. My mother has a hard time speaking italian without slipping back into our native dialect, and I do not consider her in ANY WAY inferior to my father, who, while growing up across the street from her, was raised in a house in which dialect was taboo. Yet, compared to him, she is uneducated and it does LIMIT communication with others. God, I grew up in the mountains and without standard Italian I wouldn't have been able to understand what the *hell* the people in the next valley along were saying.

For me, the same should apply to AAVE. Fine and dandy if you *speak* it, but you *should* know standard English too. I don't think it's racist, or demeaning in any way. In the past, due to a lack of widespread formal education some members of the population did not learn the standard language. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM INFERIOR, IT MAKES THEM UNEDUCATED. Nowadays, schools should teach students the standard language, and the students should make an effort and learn it. Once you know it, nobody will take it away from you and it will aid communication with others.

/rant

And to that lady who said English was the easiest language in the world? Kindly fuck off.

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iczer6, 2004-07-03 07:46 pm UTC

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vasaris, 2004-07-03 10:33 pm UTC

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mael, 2004-07-03 11:01 pm UTC

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vasaris, 2004-07-04 07:49 am UTC

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vasaris, 2004-07-04 08:27 am UTC

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-07-04 09:41 am UTC

	lcsbanana 2004-07-03 10:02 pm UTC (link)
	must not rant about linguistic hot button in f-wank. MUST NOT. IT WOULD BE WRONG AND HIGHLY IRONIC. right, I'm not here, carry on. (Reply to this)(Thread)

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necronomist, 2004-07-04 07:28 am UTC

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lcsbanana, 2004-07-04 03:31 pm UTC

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necronomist, 2004-07-04 03:40 pm UTC

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snarl, 2004-07-04 04:24 pm UTC

	visp 2004-07-04 02:57 am UTC (link)
	OMG u h8ers! Ur not liking teh wai i spL makes u racist! Y can't u accept that this is an eqwalli legitamate wai 2 speel? (Reply to this)

mydemand
2004-07-04 03:27 pm UTC (link)

OK, I'm probably just adding to the wank here, but this whole situation reminds me of what's going on here in Malaysia (and I think in Singapore too).

Recently there has been this debate over people speaking Manglish (Malay+English, or Mangled English, depending on who you ask) and Singlish (Singaporean English) instead of "Proper English". As an example, let me compare two sentences.

Proper English : Would you like to go out for a meal? (or Would you like to eat out?)
Manglish/Singlish : Hey, want to go makan or not?

The concern was that people - students, especially - were using it in professional situations, even in schoolwork, and this might be of a disadvantage to them if they want to venture out to other countries or speak to people overseas.

This huge "Speak Proper English" campaign started, with Maths and Science now taught in English instead of Malay and a local newspaper printing out English mistakes and pointing out what's wrong (think Engrish.com).

There are many people who support the idea, saying that proper English is the only way to go, we must eradicate the scrouge that is Manglish/Singlish, it only makes us sound uneducated and stupid, no one can understand us, etc etc. Then there are those who argue that Manglish/Singlish is our local flavour of English, without it we all sound boring, there's nothing intristically wrong with it, as long as we can COMMUNICATE, that should be fine.

Personally I am on the side of communication. English, while being one of the major languages here, is actually not that common if you move out of the urban areas. Speaking Proper English to someone who wasn't brought up learning English (or whose only exposure to the English language was at school - trust me, it isn't enough, especially when you consider that English and now Maths and Science are the only subjects ever taught in English) is actually going to do a lot more HARM than GOOD because the other person will not get your point. Sometimes Singlish/Manglish is the way to go.

Also, nitpicking over signboards isn't going to help much - sure, blatant errors that make the message unreadable are annoying, because it gets in the way of communication. But making a fuss over a sign that says "Chiken Rice Best Restauran" just because two words are misspelt is being overly pedantic - it's understood that the restaurant sells chicken rice (and claims to be the best at it), the message is still there. It's all about whether or not the message is COMMUNICATED.

Whether you speak Singlish or Manglish or English has nothing to do with your intelligence level. I know of many brilliant minds who speak Singlish often, and they know when they should use Singlish and when to use proper English. And I know people whose English are perfect, who never succumb to "slang", but are complete idiots. As it is, there already is a stigma against people who speak proper English because there is this perception that they are trying to show off their knowledge - myself and another friend used to get this all the time because we spoke proper English naturally; they thought we were showing off, trying to be "smart"...my friend's teacher even tried to mark him down in his English Oral exams because she thought he was putting on an accent for show. (He's Chinese, but his English doesn't have a typical Chinese accent, it's more American) But the stigma is another story altogether.

Ironically, there are many grammatical mistakes made in the Malay language by just about everybody, from newspapers to signboards to political speeches, but there isn't such a fuss about it. As long as the end message gets through, why make so much of a fuss?

(geez! This is bringing me flashbacks to Human Comm classes. Why can't I have done a report about this, instead of comparing two cultures? ;P)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-07-04 11:59 pm UTC

	aloysius 2004-07-05 01:10 pm UTC (link)
	The original threath and this one contains some of the most uninteresting pieces of writing on linguistics I have ever read, and I used to be an English major. Damnmit, people! Do I have to bring the funny myself?! I'm not funny! puts on Modern Times** (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) -

judyhazeleyes, 2004-07-05 05:49 pm UTC

	jenifer 2012-04-09 07:41 am UTC (link)
	As most of the green cleaning solutions, this sounds pretty strange as well, but have you tried cleaning your house with vodka? I know what you think, but it is true. In fact, it works a lot better than many commercial cleaners. ------------------ cleaners Brunswick \| cleaning Frankston \| cleaners Frankston (Reply to this)