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	faultypremise 2004-08-12 12:47 am UTC (link)
	Reasonable? I didn't realize that discussing how to make abuse victims responsible for 'provoking' their abusers was reasonable. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	faultypremise 2004-08-12 12:48 am UTC (link)
	Scuse. 'Sensible' is the word I meant. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	big_bad_wolf 2004-08-12 01:00 am UTC (link)
	What I was referring to was the ... no, fuck it. That community makes me want to be sick on things anyway. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	faultypremise 2004-08-12 01:01 am UTC (link)
	No one's making you read it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-12 01:13 am UTC

	*curious* wolfie_thu 2004-08-12 07:56 pm UTC (link)
	Why's that? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *curious* -

big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-12 11:04 pm UTC

Re: *curious* - wolfie_thu, 2004-08-13 03:24 am UTC

Re: *curious* -

selene_avis, 2004-08-13 01:04 am UTC

Re: *curious* - wolfie_thu, 2004-08-13 03:25 am UTC

iczer6
2004-08-12 01:54 am UTC (link)

But and I know I'll be toasted for this, there are women who *do* try to provoke their husbands/boyfriends/whatever. t

Sadly there are women who are abusive themselves, who try to pick fights.

Now not every single abuse situation is like this but it does exsist and I think the article wasn't saying 'lets forgive the people who beat their wives' but more 'lets hear what they have to say and see if there might be more to the story then we realize'.

An online writer called the Misanthropic Bitch did an article about a similar subject and while I don't agree with everything she said I think she had a few good points.

The article is here: http://www.misanthropic-bitch.com/death_to_women.html
if anyone is interested though she's not for everyone.

Icz

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faultypremise, 2004-08-12 02:01 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-12 02:10 am UTC

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faultypremise, 2004-08-12 02:15 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-12 02:40 am UTC

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faultypremise, 2004-08-12 02:43 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-12 02:52 am UTC

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iczer6, 2004-08-12 02:41 am UTC

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faultypremise, 2004-08-12 02:44 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-12 02:50 am UTC

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notapirate, 2004-08-12 11:52 pm UTC

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selene_avis, 2004-08-13 01:05 am UTC

red_eft
2004-08-12 12:50 am UTC (link)

...maybe I'm just a man-hating, hairy-legged dyke, but I'm not really seeing that (most of) Hothead's comments were either all that unreasonable or had much of an effect on the discussion. Most of her comments tend to be sarcastic in nature, too.

Any discussion including the phrase "If men feel women cause them to become violent we need to hear them out and evaluate whether their complaints may have some merit, without blaming women for men's abuse." is going to have *very* heated discussion following. (with good reason.)

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lcsbanana
2004-08-12 01:27 am UTC (link)

oh please. That article was utter bullshit, the abuse-apologists were full of nonsense, and Hothead seems to have replied with only slightly more vehemence than others. What exactly about her replies make you feel so threatened? What makes you think that a 'reasoned debate' over whether women prompt their own abuse is desireable? As far as I'm concerned, there weren't nearly *enough* flames in that thread.

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	big_bad_wolf 2004-08-12 02:07 am UTC (link)
	Because there are ways of refuting idiocy without making feminists sound like a bunch of leg-crunching psychos? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lurker32 2004-08-12 01:53 am UTC (link)
	Not seein' it, sorry. hothead's acted like a psycho in the past, IIRC, but not today. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	princessdot 2004-08-12 07:27 am UTC (link)
	If I had just read the comm postings? I would have branded the article the wanker, not hothead. meh.... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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lurker32, 2004-08-12 05:02 pm UTC

visp
2004-08-12 03:30 am UTC (link)

Ah yes, you should ask an abuser why s/he hit you, and then you can believe them when they say they won't do it again, and don't do things to provoke them into hitting you. And you should expect women to take kindly to being told this.

Fucking Bullshit!

Excuse the language, but anyone who cannot control themselves to the point where they 'must' hit someone does not deserve to be listened to, they deserve to be left. End. Of. Story.

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iczer6
2004-08-13 12:04 am UTC (link)

Excuse the language, but anyone who cannot control themselves to the point where they 'must' hit someone does not deserve to be listened to, they deserve to be left. End. Of. Story.

Because men aren't people and don't have things like tempers, flaws and the ability to be pushed too far. And all women are saints who never ever attempt to cause trouble, start of fight, or actually try an attack their husband.

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-13 12:09 am UTC

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kerikeri, 2004-08-13 10:14 pm UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-15 11:43 pm UTC

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visp, 2004-08-13 02:31 am UTC

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blue_linnet, 2004-08-13 05:28 am UTC

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visp, 2004-08-13 06:49 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-13 12:53 pm UTC

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visp, 2004-08-14 01:48 am UTC

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teratologist, 2004-08-13 03:39 am UTC

	pyratejenni 2004-08-12 04:12 am UTC (link)
	The only wanking is coming from the OP, who keeps digging herself in deeper with each "explanation." (Reply to this)

blue_linnet
2004-08-12 04:26 am UTC (link)

I have a problem with this, because really...for most of human history, women *did* take the blame for most abuse. It's not like this is a new, revolutionary idea. It just..bothers me. Alright, what if I pick a fight, am nasty and rude to my significant other? Then I deserve him/her to snap right back at me, sure. But physical violence is putting a whole other level there.

It's troublesome because in any relationship, there's going to be some amount of conflict. To act like non-physical conflict is an excuse to smack somebody (or worse) doesn't make sense to me. it's like saying 'okay, you were a major pain in the ass, of course this would happen'. But everyone is a major pain in the ass *sometimes*. And when we're talking about severe, continued abuse, any justification is going to be..lame.

I do wonder why everyone needs to give their own experiences as proof that the article is invalid, though, as the OP didn't say '*every* abusive relationship', so jumping in with a horror story doesn't seem logical there.

The article seems pretty damn invalid anyway, to me at least.

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quinctia
2004-08-12 05:19 am UTC (link)

It did seem like the argument was against leaving a relationship the second some sort of physical incident occurred, which might not always be the right answer. So I saw it as an argument that just said "consider the context a little bit, would ya?"

Sometimes there are one-time-only fuckups. There may come a day where I get so mad I haul off and smack someone, and it might be my partner. I've never hit anyone in my life since childhood teasing of my little sister, but I get angry so there's always potential. It wouldn't be right, but I probably wouldn't do it again, and it would be important to figure out why I snapped.

Luckily I'm a girl with a habit of dating men quite a bit larger than I am, so if I ever hit one of them I probably wouldn't be instantly branded evil.

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blue_linnet, 2004-08-12 08:09 am UTC

	selene_avis 2004-08-13 01:10 am UTC (link)
	No, you shouldn't hit someone, even if they are being really, really rude. But, if you are trying to solve a marriage problem, having both sides of what happened is important. And it is very likely to take both sides to work towards the solution. And I think that's what the OP was aiming for. (Reply to this)(Parent)

xturtle
2004-08-12 05:04 am UTC (link)

WTF kind of crack was the author of that article on? "It frees women to see themselves as much as agents as they are victims"? No, what frees women to see themselves as agents is a legal and social service system that makes leaving their partner fiscally possible and physically safe.

Yes, women sometimes provoke attack. Many times they have damn good reason for it (ie. protecting children, avoiding an attack they deem "worse"). But if some men see "not precognitively anticipating my every whim" as provocation, I find it hard to see the agency of women coming in to play in most abuse situations; on the contrary, the abuse is usually a small part of a relationship that strives to strip one partner of all agency.

And here I am debating structure and agency with myself on fandom_wank. Don't mind me, I'm just the nutty sociologist in the corner.

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	~divinitation~ princessdot 2004-08-12 07:25 am UTC (link)
	But if some men see "not precognitively anticipating my every whim" as provocation ..... Beautiful. Bravo! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: ~divinitation~ -

xturtle, 2004-08-12 11:53 am UTC

	phosfate 2004-08-12 05:11 pm UTC (link)
	I find it hard to see the agency of women coming in to play in most abuse situations; on the contrary, the abuse is usually a small part of a relationship that strives to strip one partner of all agency. I love you. Not in a smothering way. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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xturtle, 2004-08-12 05:51 pm UTC

kannaophelia
2004-08-12 02:34 pm UTC (link)

My vote for wanker goes to yadfothgildloc. Fucking hell.

It's okay baby, you had a hard day and I'm a nagging bitch who talks to you about my life an was five minutes late with your din-dins, I understand! Here, hit me again, it might help relieve your tension! Then when you calm down again, we can have another lovely discussion about the way your testosterone gives you "red flashes"!

otoh, hot head rocks. This:

DISCLAIMER: I DON'T HATE MEN

But wouldn't it be better if we just castrated all of them, and perhaps cut off their hands so they can't beat people anymore?
_____________________________________________________________________________

Now, to which part of my post do you think people will respond?

is a damn good reply to someone who says you should only pay attention to the part of your post which isn't, you know, screaming idiocy. hothead doesn't seem to be wanky at all, just snarky and direct, which is not exactly considered a crime in these here parts. And she's on the side of the angles. All in all, having read this through, I really, really find myself liking her a lot.

Also, this:

yadfothgidlock:
Is this seriously what you beleive, or is this sarcasm? (i have trouble with this over the internet.)

catwoman980:
I ask myself that everytime I read anything you write.

makes me proud to have catwoman 980 on my flist.

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(Anonymous)
2004-08-19 02:46 am UTC (link)

It's okay baby, you had a hard day and I'm a nagging bitch who talks to you about my life an was five minutes late with your din-dins, I understand! Here, hit me again, it might help relieve your tension! Then when you calm down again, we can have another lovely discussion about the way your testosterone gives you "red flashes"!

But it doesn't always go that way. I live a house with a dad who suffers from Post-Tramatic-Stress-Disorder and a mother who had a head injury and frankly, there are often conflicts. In one case, my dad hit my mother.

But you have to look at other factors. My dad had a very hard childhood (caused by being raped 50+ times) and occaisionally has flashbacks. After one, he went upstairs and took a bath to relax. My mom started screaming at him and calling him pathetic. Eventually she started berating him for not working (instead he gets ODSP because of his Post-Tramatic-Stress-Disorder) and said 'Oh that's right, you have your "condition". (referring to PTSD caused by being raped) He hit her.

Does that mean he's an evil bastard and should be thrown out of the house? No, because there are other factors.

Yes, there are men and women who beat people for no apparent reason. The point isn't that women are responsible for being abused, the point is that there are two sides to these stories.

Sorry if I came off angry, I'm too opinionated for my own good.

Sam (http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/electricdreams)

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-19 11:45 am UTC

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big_bad_wolf, 2004-08-19 11:45 am UTC

	teratologist 2004-08-12 04:19 pm UTC (link)
	Is it very wrong that I wanted to reply to the person who asked "Is my dad an idiot for not leaving my mom when she hit him?" and say 'Yes'? Just as a kind of aversive therapy to asking loaded rhetorical questions. And cause she was askin' for it. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	visp 2004-08-13 02:34 am UTC (link)
	Do it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

kerikeri
2004-08-12 05:56 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I've had run-ins with Hothead in the past, but either she's mellowed out or I've gotten more radical, because lately we've been agreeing with each other more often than not. (Probably has something to do with the fact that most of the really extremist stuff ends up on the community she moderates, feminist_rage, where I don't have to look at it and develop some rage of my own.)

I don't think she was particularly wanky in this case. I don't always like her methods, but here I think they were pretty effective, because the original idea in the post was so ridiculous that it lent itself well to being viciously satirized. Hopefully her exaggeration of it helped some people realize how very stupid it was to begin with.

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