moonjaguar
2004-09-05 07:42 am UTC (link)

Oh sheesh. Give the girl something she can eat without getting sick or just the wine. Nobody knew what gluten was back when the church was forming and likely there were conditions when people couldn't come up with bread or wine and had to make do with, I dunno.. clover honey? Milk? It's a symbol after all. Or that's what I was told in parochial school anyway, that communion was symbolic and we weren't eating real Jesus parts.

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eris
2004-09-05 07:58 am UTC (link)

Actually, the Roman Catholic church, which I think this girl is from, insists that yes, it REALLY IS the body of Christ that's being eaten. Growing up Catholic, that got drilled into my head. Pity me.
However, some Catholic churches are just fine with using rice wafers instead of the usual bread wafers as Communion for people who can't eat bread. IMO, this church is just being overly wanky. Although technically it's the Pope who dictates that Communion should be bread only, so I guess there's enough wank to go around.

...Wow I didn't mean to go on for that long. Oops.

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	aloysius 2004-09-05 10:36 am UTC (link)
	True, but doesn't the Catholic Church also say that the bread and the wine become the flesh and blood of Jesus the moment they are blessed? So as long as it's blessed and it resembles bread and wine, who cares? (Where I live, they don't use wine but rather rasberry juice.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-05 09:16 pm UTC (link)
	I went to a church with some friends (not sure what denomination, some form of Protestant) where they had communion that was bits of what looked like Wonder Bread and grape juice. I always wonder what Wonder Bread is made of, if there's any actual organic material in it at all. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	cairea 2004-09-05 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	The Mormon church (which I was born and raised in) does that. You can actually watch the boys who pass the sacrament bread tearing it up from store-bought loaves during the service before. XD They also use water instead of anything remotely resembling wine. Word of Wisdom, no alcohol and all that. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

moonjaguar
2004-09-05 09:48 pm UTC (link)

Do they take the bread out of the packages before the service or does everyone end up seeing the package? My city is dotted with Sunbeam Bread billboards which have the praying kid and "Not by bread alone" and I'm gettng an image of bread wrappers in church. I haven't seen any Sunbeam products in any grocery stores at all so my head is spinning, unless maybe some convenience stores and mom-and-pops carry it in other parts of the city.

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	cairea 2004-09-05 11:20 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, no, the wrappers are there. It sort of depends on who's done the shopping to stock the building kitchens what brand it is, though. Or did, back when I still went to church. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bardic_feline 2004-09-06 07:47 pm UTC (link)
	::Catholic girl speaking:: Yeah, you got that one right. The belief is that the bread and wine remain bread and wine until consecrated by the priest. I don't see why it would matter what the wafers were originally made of. In my church, we still use wine. Really, really, really bad wine...but still wine. (Reply to this)(Parent)

St. Wanky!

moonjaguar
2004-09-05 07:10 pm UTC (link)

The girl is RCC. I was baptized and educated RCC (Western Division, I don't know what it's called now) and we were told they were symbols. I dunno if it was because Paul VI was pope at the time and maybe things have changed now or if it was a locational thing. Then again the pope's arms aren't that long.

I do feel that church is being overly wanky. I mean, if the priests etc. couldn't put their heads together or call other parishes and say, "We've got something we haven't dealt with before, a first communicant who can't eat wheat. What should we do? Rice wafers? Just let her have the wine?" Or wow, even call the bishop of their own diocese and ask, likely they won't even have to get special dispensation. If their bishop says no, then call another diocese. But naw, that would make too much sense.

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	majinkarp 2004-09-06 01:22 am UTC (link)
	We were taught that they're supposed to be transformed into the body and blood of Jesus during the liturgy of the Eucharist, through the miracle of transubstantiation. I think that, theoretically, anything can be used. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-06 01:29 am UTC (link)
	Ooh, Coca-Cola and Oreos? I'm there! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	majinkarp 2004-09-06 01:36 am UTC (link)
	Hell, I'd start going to church again! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lemone 2004-09-06 05:51 am UTC (link)
	Nachos and slurpie? It'd be like the 7-11 food of salvation or something! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-06 06:25 am UTC (link)
	heee! Though one would have to watch out for flying cheese. Would there be one line for jalapeño slices and one line for plain cheese? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lemone 2004-09-06 07:53 am UTC (link)
	I say only jalapeno. Tell 'em the heartburn is just the sins being eaten out of your body by the spicy zesty flavor of THE LORD. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-06 07:55 am UTC (link)
	I like my deities spicy, zesty and crunchy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	meiyamie 2004-09-06 07:40 am UTC (link)
	Brings new meaning to "I'd sell my soul for cookies". Mmmn, cookies. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Completely OT kyuuketsukirui 2004-09-05 07:43 am UTC (link)
	I was scrolling down and was like wtf? I didn't post anything! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Completely OT meiyamie 2004-09-06 07:52 am UTC (link)
	Ahaha, sorry 'bout that... ^^ gacked the icon from fw_icons, and it seemed appropriate for this wank. :> (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2004-09-06 08:09 am UTC (link)
	No problem! :D I'm just not used to seeing my icons actually getting used. :p (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	visp 2004-09-06 06:12 pm UTC (link)
	It's great though, especially in context. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	deoridhe 2004-09-05 08:22 am UTC (link)
	I whink you man "rice" not "wheat" here: "A church suggests substitute wheat, but bigger churches start howling about its sanctity." And yes, Mother Church wanks mightly. (Reply to this)

	iczer6 2004-09-05 08:49 am UTC (link)
	Church leaders are reluctant to change anything about the sacrament. Take out the 'about the sacrament' part and you have one of my biggest issues with the church. Times change, people change, and sometimes it best to change with them. It's not a bad thing, really. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	dawnswalker 2004-09-05 09:20 am UTC (link)
	But if that girl were to die from her wheat-related allergies, they could say that she was a martyr! is really* going to hell now* (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	meiyamie 2004-09-05 01:32 pm UTC (link)
	The thought crossed my little non-practicing Catholic mind. And after martyrdom, we'll have St. Haley of the Celiacs. Oi, has a good ring to it! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-05 07:28 pm UTC (link)
	I'm thinking she'll look something like St. Imelde with the host floating in front of her (she fell down dead after receiving communion) but without the miniature Dominican nun's habit. I guess she can wear her communion dress (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-05 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	Oops, I mean Blessed Imelda. There's no Miracle Number Three yet /nitpick (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sneer 2004-09-05 04:35 pm UTC (link)
	Remember, this is the church that considers a woman who ignored the advice of her doctors, carried a baby to term, and died delivering it saintworthy. A real Catholic should take the risk to personal health and safety and eat a communion wafer she's violently allergic to! Pfuh. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sarajayechan 2004-09-05 02:56 pm UTC (link)
	Just because she's allergic to wheat? A word of advice to the girl: Get another church. (Reply to this)

darthfi
2004-09-05 06:35 pm UTC (link)

Bit baffled by this. My sister is coeliac. We were both raised Catholic. I remember her getting special communion at times, and the church never had a problem with it. Nor did it seem to have a problem producing a low-gluten wafer - there were quite a few coeliacs in the town.

And yes, as a child, it was severe enough that the disease could potentially have killed her. (And it nearly did once, due to a previously safe recipe being changed without our knowledge.)

Sounds like a certain dioscese is being extremely wanky indeed (although, why doesn't the mother just arrange for her to take the wine instead?)

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Jeeeesus....

moonjaguar
2004-09-05 07:45 pm UTC (link)

Sounds like a certain dioscese is being extremely wanky indeed (although, why doesn't the mother just arrange for her to take the wine instead?)

Hmmm.. I looked at the article yet again when you brought up the point:

"The diocese has told Haley's mother that the girl can receive a low-gluten wafer, or just drink wine at Communion, but that anything without gluten does not qualify. Pelly-Waldman rejected the offer, saying her child could be harmed by even a small amount of the substance."

Oh look, from the diocese itself:
http://www.dioceseoftrenton.org/department/news_detail.asp?newsid=1006

"Over the years, the Church has focused on remedies for the dilemma they face, offering ways to welcome those with celiac intolerance to the table, said Father Sam Sirianni, director of the diocesan Office of Worship.

“For 2000 years, we’ve used wheat,” Father Sirianni said. “With the advent of medical science, we’ve recognized the condition and that it’s detrimental to a number of people.

“The Church has produced a number of options for people suffering from celiac. They can partake of a low-gluten host – it’s not the low-gluten host of the last five years. It’s got an extremely miniscule amount of gluten.

“If this is a case where even that is too much, they are offered the cup of Precious Blood,” Father Sirianni said. If those with the disease have problems with wine, Father Sirianni said, the Church encourages the use of mustum – a grape juice in which fermentation has been arrested shortly after it starts, leaving a minimal alcohol content.

Those options were offered to Mrs. Pelly-Waldman but she rejected them. “Even a trace amount can make Haley sick or affect her immune system,” said Mrs. Pelly-Waldman of the low gluten host. The wine and mustum – with its trace amount of alcohol, were rejected out of principle because Mrs. Pelly-Waldman doesn’t believe children should ingest any amount of alcohol."

So Mom won't let her have just the wine because she thinks its bad for kiddies. I'm mostly German by ancestry and it was common for kids to have a little wine with a big family dinner when extended family was over. In fact, we measured how "big kid" we were by how much wine was in our glass (when I was Haley's age, I had a bare little splash and Communion wine is a teeny tiny sip). Then of course some person who was an -ist assumed I was an alcoholic in training because OMG I was occasionally given little tiny bits of wine as a kid! Never mind I rarely drank at all, only got drunk two or three times in my life and currently don't drink because I'm full of anticonvulsants.

Just let her have the wine, Mom, and you won't be on CNN. Though non-gluten wafers are easily found. They can be ordered on the internet from Catholic suppliers (I wish their thuribles were cheaper though). Easy enough for the parish to do (and the diocese to approve of). Fountains of Wank! I'm picturing one of those outdoor Our Lady fountain statues with spooge instead of water. Good thing I don't believe in hell!

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	Re: Jeeeesus.... moonjaguar 2004-09-05 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	sorry about the megalength. Just going to the diocese site was an education and touched off a wrant. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Jeeeesus.... darthfi 2004-09-05 08:34 pm UTC (link)
	Of course, part of that article makes me wonder when Catholics are going to demand low-carb communion... And yes, the mother is an idiot. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Jeeeesus.... moonjaguar 2004-09-05 09:14 pm UTC (link)
	LOL low-carb communion... little hamburger hosts? Like White Castles? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Jeeeesus.... feloniousfeline 2004-09-06 01:51 am UTC (link)
	I thought White Castle was the work of the Devil. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Jeeeesus.... moonjaguar 2004-09-06 02:01 am UTC (link)
	I thought it was Culver's that was the work of the Devil. What sucks is I can't find a White Castle for a good thirty miles but Culver's are everywhere beckoning to meeee to spend spend spend! Mmmmmculvers! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Jeeeesus.... feloniousfeline 2004-09-06 02:14 am UTC (link)
	I have resisted the evil that is Culver's. However, I never fail to succumb to the siren song that is Steak N Shake. Actually, I refuse to move to a state that doesn't have one. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Jeeeesus....

terminal_frost
2004-09-06 06:42 am UTC (link)

Of course, part of that article makes me wonder when Catholics are going to demand low-carb communion...

(Sooner or later, you knew someone would mention that...)

You mean they haven't yet?

Dollars to donuts someone's created an Atkin's church somewhere out there in the world.

They've got "Christian *insert group name here*"/"*insert social group here* for Christ" organisations all over the place these days...

Wouldn't surprise me if there were "Atkin's Dieters for Christ" groups running about.

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Re: Jeeeesus....

meiyamie
2004-09-06 07:50 am UTC (link)

I live in a majority Catholic country, went through Catholic schools and all that jazz. The emphasis had always been on the bread...I remember most of the services I went to as a kid, my first communion included, they would offer the bread to the service but NEVER the wine. ("Body of Christ, Amen")
So, with the bread being center of attention, I can't blame her for refusing the wine.

But it's still silly, either way.

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	Re: Jeeeesus.... dawnswalker 2004-09-06 12:11 am UTC (link)
	"The wine and mustum – with its trace amount of alcohol, were rejected out of principle because Mrs. Pelly-Waldman doesn’t believe children should ingest any amount of alcohol." Hey Lady, you do know that they're not going to pass her the entire bottle over the pulpit, don't you? Besides, it doesn't look like she has a lot of other options... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	A whole bottle? I'm so there!!! moonjaguar 2004-09-06 01:37 am UTC (link)
	If they're going to pass it over the pulpit that means I don't have to get up and join the parade to the chalices! Oh wait... wine gives me migraines. I'll give my share to the next person if I can have a pigfoot and a bottle of beer (or a reefer and a gang of gin, slay me cuz I'm in my sin...) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: A whole bottle? I'm so there!!! dawnswalker 2004-09-06 03:24 am UTC (link)
	Hey, if Communion time was more like Happy Hour, I might even actually bother with being communionized. As it stands now, it's kind of obvious that I'm not familiar with the actual ceremony. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

RCC communion in short.

moonjaguar
2004-09-06 03:39 am UTC (link)

Note: I'm going by the observations of churches in the Rockford (IL)Diocese, Chicago Archdiocese, Joliet Archdiocese, and several Wisconsin dioceses/archdioceses (whatever the plural is). Different parishes/dioceses may vary. This excludes Latin Rites churches which still use the old pre-Vat2 communion rail. I've got Tom Lehrer's Vatican Rag in my head now.

Currently in most Roman Catholic churches, the ushers let people out of the pews to get in line. First a person goes up to get the host. The priest (or deacon if the congregation is larger and there's more than one person giving the communion but the priest has seniority) says "The Body of Christ" and holds out the host. The person usually takes the host in their hands, says "Amen", then puts said host in their mouth and heads for the wine if they want the wine. Some folks still stick out their tongue and the priest or deacon puts it on their tongue but I've only seen old folks still do it that way.

Then the person heads for the wine chalice. The priest or deacon says "The Blood of Christ" and the person takes a sip, says "Amen" and goes back to their pew. Or is it "Amen", then takes a sip and goes back to their pew? I skip the wine bit partly because church wine tastes like Heinz Cider Vinegar more often than not and I always felt like I was swapping spit with the entire congregation.

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	lindentree 2004-09-05 07:43 pm UTC (link)
	Let's get ready to humble! I just wanted to say that that really made me laugh. So thanks! :D Also, this is all just makes me even happier that Catholic school is far behind me. Wheeeee! (Reply to this)

	majinkarp 2004-09-06 01:17 am UTC (link)
	They let us drink wine at our first Communion, even though we were only seven. The rules probably vary from church to church. As pointed out above, this situation has come up before, and there are clear alternatives. I feel like the mother is doing this to prove a point more than anything else. (Reply to this)

	fiatincantatum 2004-09-06 02:01 am UTC (link)
	Good thing I'm probably going to hell anyway (at least according to the Catholic church) because my brain immediately jumped from gluten to gluteus... ... nice buns... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2004-09-06 07:53 am UTC (link)
	Lotsa Renaissance paintings of Jesus and saints with nice butts... (Reply to this)(Parent)