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Caroline (urbanspaceman) wrote in otf_wank,
@ 2004-11-16 16:54:00

Current mood:

miffed

Intellectual wank
Over at Mock_The_Stupid, jguy1288 makes a post about stupidity in his history class, which is totally non-wanky.

Then along comes apollyon who suggests that classes should be segregated between "smarts", "mediums" and "slows". I'd do some quoting and such, but the wank is making my head a splode.

(Post a new comment)

rogue
2004-11-16 07:29 am UTC (link)

The weeding through of students this guy is talking about is called grading. The smart kids pass, the dumbass ones fail.

Although, I've noticed it's really hard to flunk a highschool class. I've begun to think there must be a certain amount of paperwork that goes along with flunking someone, because during HS, I'd see students who, literally, never turned in a thing or took a test, skate by with Ds.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

restlesshands
2004-11-16 08:50 am UTC (link)

*snort* I think it's just about impossible to fail HS classes. The only person I've ever known to repeatedly fail classes was a friend of mine who was a complete pot head and slept through every class he was in.

The ease with which people pass through the school system is really one of the biggest flaws. Unless you REALLY fuck up, failing isn't really an issue. The teachers want the problems students gone, as does the administration because they look bad when there's lots of repeats. So horrible students somehow manage to pass because people would rather get rid of them than deal with them.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

annabelle_lee, 2004-11-17 01:59 am UTC

restlesshands, 2004-11-17 02:01 am UTC

littlest_lurker
2004-11-16 05:55 pm UTC (link)

Speaking as someone who took basic math classes in HS (or Math I-IV as it is known) yeah, you have to work in order to fail.

Every year was an exercise in "you're still here?" for me when I looked around the room at my classmates. Even though I've known a *lot* of idiots in my schooling career, the last time I ever met anyone who had actually been held back a year was in fifth grade.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	blue_linnet 2004-11-17 10:43 am UTC (link)
	Yes. Yes it is. My school counselor, who really liked me, gave me a C- in one class I'd not done a jot of work for because she knew that I knew the stuff and was just far too lazy to actually do it. (Ugh. I really would like to redo high school, since I coasted along and generally behaved crappily. Eh well.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ladysorka 2004-11-16 07:32 am UTC (link)
	Wait, wait, wait. Don't American high schools already do that? It's called Honors, Regular, and Basic. Dumbass. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	blackjackrocket 2004-11-16 08:12 am UTC (link)
	My school had Honors, Regular, and "special". The only thing special about it was...well...I can't think of anything. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-11-16 04:44 pm UTC

	restlesshands 2004-11-16 08:47 am UTC (link)
	Not all schools have such systems. And some are actually considering going back to "integrated" styles of teaching too. Also, love the icon. XD (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ladysorka, 2004-11-16 08:54 am UTC

squib, 2004-11-16 10:41 am UTC

squib, 2004-11-16 10:43 am UTC

big_bad_wolf, 2004-11-16 08:20 pm UTC

restlesshands, 2004-11-16 01:38 pm UTC

	majinkarp 2004-11-16 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	We were always tracked, so I can't conceive of any other system. The downside to it is that you do tend to be grouped with the same people over and over again, but I'd hardly call it discriminatory. Of course, some of the kids in the honors program are still ignorant, racist fucktards... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

loki, 2004-11-16 06:14 pm UTC

arielchan
2004-11-16 05:20 pm UTC (link)

My school only had regular classes for everyone and then a few open-enrollment AP classes in some subjects.

They identified the "special ed" students in elementary/middle school, but a friend of mine in the program said that all that meant was that she took her tests in a different classroom with a teacher who gave her the answers to anything she asked about.

The also identified GT students at the same time, but in middle school there was only one specifically GT class. In high school, they ignored the GT program completely my first three years of high school, then turned it into a little club sort of thing that met for lunch once per grading period to play board games. We also went on a field trip. To the zoo. My senior year of high school.

Morons.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

eljuno, 2004-11-16 11:14 pm UTC

	melusine 2004-11-16 08:03 pm UTC (link)
	My high school had Honors, Advanced (AP classes, but not Honors), Regular, Remedial, and Special Education. (Reply to this)(Parent)

More history class stupidty

khym_chanur
2004-11-16 08:38 am UTC (link)

When I was in 9th grade history class, the teacher asked us "Why did the federal government impose the taxes that led to the Whiskey Rebellion?" Being a smart-ass, I quiped "To piss off the Irish". The teacher then scolded me for giving a joke answer, since some of the other students might believe me. And I thought "WTF? Who could be stupid enough to believe the answer I gave?"

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: More history class stupidty rogue 2004-11-16 08:50 am UTC (link)
	I'm in a (college!) Early American History class. prof: Which rebellion was over tarrifs on products like whiskey? male student: Uh.. huh.. wha.. er.. Jay's Treaty? prof: ... ... ... entire class: cringe (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: More history class stupidty pokecheck 2004-11-16 10:12 am UTC (link)
	My favorite bit from high school. "And then they dumped 45,000 casks of opium into the harbor..." "WHOA!" "No, Ben. One guy wasn't going to smoke it all." (Reply to this)(Parent)

It wasn't in class, but I can only imagine what a stellar student she was.

also_not_a_pipe
2004-11-16 05:49 pm UTC (link)

I was in Venice with some friends the year before last, and we took a boat tour around to some of the different islands on the lagoon. One of them was Dorchello, which was supposedly the oldest inhabited island and one of the Huns' first stops in western Europe. There was an old stone chair which the tourguide said had been Atilla the Hun's.

We were hanging out taking pictures of each other on the chair when these two girls come up to us, watch us for a while, and finally started this conversation:

First girl: Um... do you speak English?
Us: *bemused stares, as she's been listening to us for about five minutes* Sure, yeah.
First girl: Whose chair did they say that was? It had to be someone important because they mentioned it.
One of my friends: Atilla the Hun.
Second girl: Oh. Who was that?
Us: ...
Friend two: Um... Atilla the Hun.
First girl: Was he, like, some local guy? I hadn't heard of him before.
Second girl: Me neither.
Me: *facepalm* Just... just don't worry about it. Big scary guy. Tried to take over Europe. 'sall you really need to know.
Second girl: Really? Was that like, recently?
Us: *confer* Um, not really. It was, what? *more discussion* Middle Ages sometime, wasn't it? Yeah.
First girl: Eeew! That's like, history!
Us: ...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: It wasn't in class, but I can only imagine what a stellar student she was. -

big_bad_wolf, 2004-11-16 08:21 pm UTC

Re: It wasn't in class, but I can only imagine what a stellar student she was. -

also_not_a_pipe, 2004-11-16 10:39 pm UTC

Re: It wasn't in class, but I can only imagine what a stellar student she was. -

kijikun, 2004-11-16 11:21 pm UTC

Re: It wasn't in class, but I can only imagine what a stellar student she was. -

sarracenia, 2004-11-17 06:33 am UTC

Re: It wasn't in class, but I can only imagine what a stellar student she was. -

plazmah, 2004-11-17 07:42 am UTC

	Re: More history class stupidty limyaael 2004-11-17 05:58 am UTC (link)
	I'm an English teacher at the college (freshman)level, so even though I don't go into a whole lot of history with my class, I expect them to know basic facts that will affect, oh, the writing of papers. Recent sad facts: -Half the class thought the Vietnam War took place before World War I. -Most of them thought the Gulf War took place in Syria. I cry. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: More history class stupidty -

khym_chanur, 2004-11-17 06:34 am UTC

restlesshands
2004-11-16 08:47 am UTC (link)

I don't think Apollyon was being wanky at all. He stated his position quite civily and didn't get egotistical or condescending. The only wank to be found is when other people jump on him for stating his point of view.

Personally, coming from a school that had Honors and AP classes, I have never been more thankful that they exist. Segregation, my ass. You can get into any class you want and most of the "slow" kids don't want to be in or care about the Honors classes. In turn, I didn't have to deal with dumbasses harrassing the teacher and being pains for most of my classes. The difference is very much there and it has a huge impact on the class. (I took regular US History because I didn't want to take AP and there was no Honors US History. Not only was the work ridiculously easy because it had to be on a level that fit the majority of the class, a portion of the students were loud, disruptive, ignorant, racist fucktards. Boy howdy, was it ever fun being the known lesbian in THAT class.)

Heh, I could rant on, but I'll stop. Sufice to say, I don't see the wank, but that's just me.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	mistressrenet 2004-11-16 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe they could seperate classes into 'people willing to do the requisite amount of work', 'people driven beyond that' and 'idiot slackers.' (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sarracenia, 2004-11-16 04:32 pm UTC

arielchan, 2004-11-16 05:23 pm UTC

bubosquared, 2004-11-16 07:00 pm UTC

teleute, 2004-11-17 01:52 am UTC

bubosquared, 2004-11-17 02:01 am UTC

ahiru, 2004-11-17 09:44 pm UTC

teleute, 2004-11-17 09:55 pm UTC

ahiru, 2004-11-17 09:59 pm UTC

teleute, 2004-11-17 10:08 pm UTC

annabelle_lee, 2004-11-17 02:06 am UTC

jaina, 2004-11-17 02:37 am UTC

sarracenia, 2004-11-17 06:31 am UTC

restlesshands, 2004-11-16 05:36 pm UTC

darkerthanpale
2004-11-16 03:28 pm UTC (link)

It's normal for schools in the UK to 'stream' or 'set' pupils by ability. It's a very good idea, in my experience - the top classes move at a faster pace, and the lower classes are smaller and move more slowly, and there's more individual attention. If you perform well you can decide if you want to be moved up a set (many people opt not to, as they like the smaller classes and extra attention), and if you're not coping in a higher set, then you're advised to move down. Often you're actually taught better in the lower sets, because you're given teachers who're more patient and used to dealing with people who have problems with the subject; in the top sets, the teachers are often less able to empathise with those who don't understand the first time round, so aren't good at teaching those who don't excel.

I don't think that people are being overly wanky about it all, incidentally. The arguments are civil on both sides. I don't think that Apollyon's views are wanky (although he did phrase things badly - 'smart', 'medium' and 'slow' are rather charged terms), and I think that people responded to him politely, so, er, not so wanktastic in my books.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	nekoneko 2004-11-16 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	Really? Where I went to school, the slower classes were larger, because not many people wanted to take the faster courses. I had more individual attention in AP English than, say, College Prep English. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	redwarrior 2004-11-16 04:46 pm UTC (link)
	OP- Funny. Died laughing at the German comments... However, apollyon= Elitist Snob. ~~Much like I was when I was in HS, since I was in the Honors/Regents program.~~ (Reply to this)

	gal_montag 2004-11-16 10:21 pm UTC (link)
	They used to do that, actually. Mostly in English and Math, and it was kinda nice. I mean, they didn't put it that way, I didn't know why there were three reading groups, just that when they stopped and I had to start reading (what basically amounted to) Goosebumps and other similar reading level books it really sucked a lot of ass. (Reply to this)(Thread)

gal_montag, 2004-11-16 10:27 pm UTC

kittikattie
2004-11-16 10:27 pm UTC (link)

I grew up with the three reading groups thing -- the quick readers, the average ones, and the slow ones. And even when they mixed us all together, we still knew who the slwo ones were and some of the smarter kids resented them for holding the class back.

The other thing I hated was being held back because someone on in the class was being slow. I actually once got in trouble with a teacher because I read ahead of the group reading and when she called on me, I was doing the questions on the worksheet she passed out. Bah. My weekly gifted classes away from the school were blessings.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

kookaburra, 2004-11-16 11:55 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-11-17 12:49 am UTC

kittikattie, 2004-11-17 12:59 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-11-17 04:22 am UTC

kittikattie, 2004-11-17 05:13 am UTC

amasaglajax, 2004-11-17 11:29 pm UTC

kittikattie, 2004-11-18 10:47 pm UTC

amasaglajax, 2004-11-19 01:58 am UTC

kittikattie, 2004-11-20 09:49 am UTC

ahiru, 2004-11-17 09:57 pm UTC

kittikattie, 2004-11-17 12:56 am UTC

annabelle_lee, 2004-11-17 02:36 am UTC

sarracenia, 2004-11-17 06:22 am UTC

annabelle_lee
2004-11-17 02:30 am UTC (link)

Ehhh, crap. I'm confused by the whole segregation crap and the Honors/AP/remidial thing. Someone explain?

In my H.S, you were basically mainstreamed into the normal Regents classes. If you had a disability, you were excused from class for tests and given tutoring sessions as a type of class in the Resource department. If you were sooper smart, you could be nominated for AP.

We had no Honors, but an Honor Society of do-gooder geeks with super high grades. Which didn't really matter, except for making the smart/helpful kids into this 'kewl clique' of elitist bitches ~~and making the rest of us smart, but anti-social, people bitter as hell.~~

I was in AP courses for 11th and 12th grade and because our local community college had a program, got to get college credits for each AP class I passed. (for a fee, of course. Greedy bastards.) Also, I used to tutor kids in the regular Regents History class for both years and I saw a definite improvement in my 'students'. If I wasn't there to help them, they would have certainly failed the course, so there's definitely something to be said for the average kids hanging around the smart ones.

In conclusion, apollyon? Elitist fuck. Would have fit in quite well with my local Honor Society.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

annabelle_lee, 2004-11-17 02:33 am UTC

amasaglajax
2004-11-17 11:28 pm UTC (link)

Up to seventh grade, when I switched schools, I was in schools that had an EG program (Especially Gifted), regular education for the usual suspects, and Special Education for the retarded kids. I was in the EG program and honestly, it was just that we'd use textbooks from a grade ahead of us. So in grade 5, we'd use grade 6 textbooks and so on. In thired grade, my teacher let me read books from the small class library during reading time because my reading ability was so far beyond that of the rest of the class. This same teacher publically chewed me out for not being able to subtract 7 from 11, though. ;.;

(Reply to this)

	teratologist 2004-11-19 02:05 am UTC (link)
	I don't really see the problem with that sort of thing in high school, although when it's done too early in elementary school I believe it's been shown to sometimes cause problems with needlessly biasing teachers against certain kids and/or kids living down to people's expectations. (Reply to this)

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