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	necronomist 2005-02-06 09:56 pm UTC (link)
	"Have these people ever visited other countries, or at least heard of them from something other than fairytales? Real countries that actually exist?" I remember that a low percentage of Americans actually visited other countries, so my guess would be 'no.' That doesn't explain the British, however. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	nolifeking 2005-02-06 10:11 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, well, I can see why Americans don't travel abroad what with the size of the place, but I still wonder where these people get their info, then. All Swedes pay over half their income in tax since when? And only have to work to stave off boredom, since when? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	threegoldfish 2005-02-07 12:59 am UTC (link)
	why Americans don't travel abroad what with the size of the place It's also the fact that we don't get any fucking vacation time. 10 days is considered plush. grumbles And it seems like only the people in the Metro DC area actually get federal holidays off. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	zuzu 2005-02-07 05:32 pm UTC (link)
	That may be the best icon I've ever seen. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	fiatincantatum 2005-02-08 12:17 am UTC (link)
	10 days is considered plush And they don't even have to give us THAT much. They don't have to give us any at all. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	notjo 2005-02-07 03:16 am UTC (link)
	Hmm... I don't know a lot about Sweden, but I'd like to learn. Can you tell me how much they pay in Income Tax and the like? I'm given to understand that the tax rate is very high, but that the social programs are very high as well.... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

lexin
2005-02-07 04:48 pm UTC (link)

Bit of research (I'm a geek in this area) and I discovered this:

Sweden
Social Protection spending as a % of gross domestic product (GDP) in 1999: 32.9% (Eurostat 1/2002)

Social Security Contributions (including unemployment and sickness benefit deductions, but not healthcare spending which is financed by taxation): Employer 32.82% Employee 7.00%
(likewise, I think that comes from Eurostat)

USA
Social Security and medicare contributions:
Employer 7.65% Employee 7.65%

So, the employee pays slightly less in Sweden in social security contributions than the hapless person in the US. This does not include taxation, that is a separate issue.

However I could not discover what the headline social protection spending as a % of GDP is in the US.

I suspect this is because it's unquantifiable. It would include: unemployment insurance (assuming that's purchasable) and benefits, healthcare spending, health insurance, the costs of administrating healthcare in that particular way (but not health insurer's profits), spending on publicly provided old age pensions (but not private pensions), medicare and medicaid spending and other sickness benefits. I also suspect that if all that (and the other things I've missed out) were quantified it probably wouldn't be far short of Sweden's 32.9%.

Basically, I think takko is a wacko: as anyone knows who's ever tried, comparing social security provision spending (in it's European, widest sense) across nations is fraught with difficulty and a hiding to nothing. Professors on huge salaries try and fail. I reckon takko is a college kid who is so far up Ayn Rand's backside that she can see out between her teeth. And that's seriously funny.

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nolifeking
2005-02-08 10:28 pm UTC (link)

That depends on your income, in which kommun* you live, and if you're a member of the former state church. From your income you may pay kommun, landsting**, burial, church and state*** taxes.

You can definitely strike off 20%-30% something of your direct income. You don't pay anything to the state if you make more than a certain amount (I think 24 000 crowns) a month, but when this is added you might actually start to climb towards the 50% in taxes. So income taxes are high, if relatively lower for lower incomes, but not as high as 50% for an average person.

But of course, then there's the weighing taxes against tax-based subsiditions: Depending on income and living costs you might get some % of your wages come back to every month in living grants to pay rent. So if I make 11 000/month, pay 3000 in tax and have a rent of 3000 to pay with my now somewhat meager income, I might get 500 back to support rent, and then I don't in practice lose more than 2500/month. Keeping track of the other taxations and tax-funded stuff is enough to make me wish I hadn't grown up: Income tax at its own doesn't say that much about how you can live.

* Don't know how to translate, decidingly smaller units than US states but with their own politicians in charge.
** Another political unit slightly larger than the kommun, but more arcane to explain.
*** That is to say, the country of Sweden = the state.

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redatt
2005-02-07 01:14 am UTC (link)

That doesn't explain the British, however.

Well, you see, it's like this...

When two (or more) nations invaid this same piece of land and find that they hate each other very, very much (and don't like the natives very much either), they argue (as in, have Great Big Bloody Battles), and get really hot under their collars (or togas, or kilts, or whatever their traditional dress might be, (or beards, if they're Vikings)) and sometimes, in the midst of it all, they have great Hate Sex. Eventually, they get around to thinking how great the Hate Sex part is and tentively start experimenting with Make-up Sex ... and that's how the British were born. As you can see, we're a really fuck-up group of people.

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	papervolcano 2005-02-07 09:44 am UTC (link)
	hee! You so win the country. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2005-02-11 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	Best summary of Britain I have seen in a long time. The Hate Sex is good. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	gorogoro 2005-02-06 10:09 pm UTC (link)
	Takko is one of the scariest people I've seen online in a long long time. The sales tax argument from her is great, too. How can she possibly fail at basic algebra that badly? (Reply to this)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2005-02-06 11:43 pm UTC (link)

I was actually totally shocked when what I thought was an innocent enquiry into the current state of affairs in America (which I would like to understand before attacking...) sparked a huge debate about economic thoery in which! I have read decent arguments for a different tax system, I have read reasoned arguments for removing the social security network, I don't agree with them but at least they were reasoned arguments with data to back them up. This person seems to merely be completly crazy and simply bitter over her tax bill without noticing how the government is benefitting her... ah well. Wacko Americans online are just soooo rare (not) - more Americans therefore more American wackos I think, I know lots of Brit wackos must exist out there someplace.

--Naath (no Journalfen :( )

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	fuzzytowers 2005-02-07 02:07 pm UTC (link)
	You asked a really good question. Get a Journalfen. It's good fun. I've seen Brit wackos too. Does Harry Potter ring a bell? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2005-02-17 10:02 am UTC (link)
	If you want a serious answer go to the boards at mothering.com. There are many intelligent American women there who are now or have been on assistance. However short answer is it depends on the state. In CA, for example, your hypothetical woman would be covered. In other states, I don't know. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lexin 2005-02-07 02:11 pm UTC (link)
	Takko gives me the impression (I didn't check on his/her bio) of being a college kid who has just read (and swallowed whole) Ayn Rand. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	texta 2005-02-06 10:25 pm UTC (link)
	:( Half the comments are screened now. What's left is quite interesting but I'm presuming all the tastiest spooge is locked down. (Reply to this)

	smo 2005-02-06 10:36 pm UTC (link)
	And if you don'thave insurance, then you can't pay and who ends up paying? The hospital. And who does the hospital shift the bills to? The insurance companies. And who do the insurance companies shift the bills to? The policy holders. What a shame. Can I bite her to death with my COBRA? Please? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	runrunmarch 2005-02-07 03:24 am UTC (link)
	In my experience they send it to a collections agency and you have to pay xxx amount every month, even if it is small x_X Like I'm paying $25 a month on $3000 in medical bills I've got right now. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2005-02-07 03:32 am UTC (link)
	Hmm, maybe I can try that with my COBRA premiums. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	blackjackrocket 2005-02-07 08:54 am UTC (link)
	Who is the 'cute dork' in your icon and why does he make me think of "Adrian" from CyberSix? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rinoared 2005-02-06 10:50 pm UTC (link)
	Holy shit I'm trying so hard not to point out how well Scandinavian countries do in every single study re: education, what with their EVIL FREE SCHOOLS and all... (Reply to this)(Thread)

nolifeking
2005-02-06 11:10 pm UTC (link)

Oh, don't point too hard, or I will feel forced to play devil's advocate and point at the mounting problems with our higher and lower education systems that's been news for the last five years or so. But I'm stuck with a huge debt after my education was allowed to go to hell thanks to incompetent bureaucracy in action, so I'm bitter.

I honestly don't think what makes or breaks a school is how it's financed, but somehow I also don't think jumping into that debate with nuanced arguments would be very useful. Maybe if I threw in some smileys... ^___^

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rinoared
2005-02-06 11:15 pm UTC (link)

Yours, as in Swedish? Yeah, they've been making "study trips" over the pond to learn what we're doing better about that *grin* And btw, I'm married to another Swedish with a hugehuge debt so I've heard the Swedish Education System rant enough many times. In return I've ranted about ours, so it evens out a bit.

But essentially, there's no perfect system, of economy or education. Faults are unavoidable, but we still have to strive for the best. And for that, I think we're doing pretty damn well overall, not at all the terrible pinko commie land that LOL-abuser claimed we have.

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nolifeking
2005-02-06 11:39 pm UTC (link)

Yes, I'm Swedish. I've heard mostly good things about Finland's education, though, particularily at the basic levels... and some bad things. Much in the news a few weeks ago.

After battling the system when it fails I call it inflexible and hardly up to date, leaking money and hard to handle at the same time. But yeah, overall it's also kept me up. It works, it will need fixing to keep working, and even then you could slip through and fall. Just like most things.

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	(Anonymous) 2005-02-17 10:04 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, too bad their population has fallen below replacement levels. All the free schoold in the world don't change the fact that caged animals don't breed. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mistressrenet 2005-02-17 03:49 pm UTC (link)
	I was trying to decide whether to laugh at or argue with that, but then I realized I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make. Laugh it is! (Reply to this)(Parent)

silvernutmeg
2005-02-06 11:00 pm UTC (link)

This is takko:

=)

This is takko being internet-stabbed in her internet-face:

  @
=/(

All right, I feel somewhat better now. Carry on.

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	nolifeking 2005-02-06 11:23 pm UTC (link)
	...I think you just restored my faith in smileys catching emotion. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chaimonkey 2005-02-06 11:56 pm UTC (link)
	Ewwwwww, a Sailor Venus fan! XP (Reply to this)

	nevadafighter 2005-02-07 01:36 am UTC (link)
	They're arguing with a very ignorant teenager who has a LITTLE bit of knowledge and is now apparently an expert on international economics and politics. And from her responses, all the "omg yur an IDIOT!11!" comments are just amusing her. seconds the internet-stabbing (Reply to this)

	gal_montag 2005-02-07 03:04 am UTC (link)
	How can you argue with someone who LOLs every goddamn thing and talks at people like they're all retarded? (Reply to this)

	jrs1980 2005-02-07 04:24 am UTC (link)
	Oooooh burn!</i> Nice one, takko. (Reply to this)

	layne 2005-02-07 06:35 am UTC (link)
	Does anyone else find the idea of takko using a free LJ account ironic? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jrs1980 2005-02-07 09:14 am UTC (link)
	She probably just didn't want to pay the sales tax. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kraken_sleeps 2005-02-07 01:55 pm UTC (link)
	I started mentally flailing when takko said that public education was a waste of money. I just... I have no words. (Reply to this)

	teratologist 2005-02-08 12:40 am UTC (link)
	Teeny pseudo libertarians give me much the same emotions as my neighbor's yapping puffball dogs. A sort of "man, when you finally CATCH that skunk and it sprays you in the face, I'm going to laugh and laugh, and then cry because the smell has drifted into my kitchen" feeling. (Reply to this)