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	squib 2005-03-03 09:05 am UTC (link)
	Ow! winces at all that boldface text (Reply to this)(Thread)

	urbanspaceman 2005-03-03 09:07 am UTC (link)
	What? Where? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	squib 2005-03-03 09:15 am UTC (link)
	The whole message board-- all the comments are in Verdana bold. Too much contrast, hurts me to look at the thing. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	urbanspaceman 2005-03-03 09:26 am UTC (link)
	It is? Huh. I never noticed before. shrug (Reply to this)(Parent)

the_clansmen
2005-03-03 09:21 am UTC (link)

I admit the kids were probably disrespectful little snots, but the teacher? Not cool. I guess it must be hard to deal with snitty kids every day, but to throw a temper tantrum and pull a chair out from under a kid? That's crossing a few lines, IMO.

Personally, the "under God" line of the pledge drives me right up the wall, but that's a personal wank that you shouldn't get me started on. (It wasn't even in the pledge originally! Ack!)

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	stjarna 2005-03-03 09:35 am UTC (link)
	Well much as I agree that you shouldn't have to stand for the national anthem, I certainly don't for mine. I do think the teacher was totally out of line, not for what he did with his chair but the language he used. Maybe schools in England are a little different but you'd never hear a teacher cussing the way he was, he'd find himself out of a job. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	wankismyfandom 2005-03-03 09:56 am UTC (link)
	You generally don't hear teachers swear in America, either. But we tend to get more upset at physical stuff (like the sub we once had who had a penchant for throwing desks ... he didn't last long) than about a teacher popping out a swear word. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2005-03-03 09:56 am UTC (link)

Most amusing comment I've seen so far:
Why do other countries hate us so much? Is it because we are the best? Or is it because we think that we are the best? Doesn't everybody think their country is the best? Then why do they still hate us?

I voted Bush '04, I love my country, and I only hate other countries when they hate us.

I was born on this earth just as they were, why is it that they hate me? Because I was born here and they were born there? Do they hate me because In my country I have the right to do whatever I want? Do they hate me because I am fat? Do they hate me because my countrymen get divorced more than their countrymen?

Do they hate me because my country is the most powerful in the world? Or do they hate me because I think my country is the most powerful in the world?

If you hate me, then don't get mad when I hate you back. Its only fair that you defend your country and I defend mine.

Persecution complex, much? (Or is there some actual persecution going on that I missed because I only skimmed through the thread?)

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	(Anonymous) 2005-03-03 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	General global sentiment is "America is teh evil!!1!" America is no better or worse than many of the countries I've traveled. America over all reminds me of my uncle Richter. Unruly when drunk, but he was a decently charitable person when sober. perhaps America will sober up in 2008? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2005-03-03 01:27 pm UTC (link)
	To which I was just itching to answer: 'It's quite simple. I do not hate the USA, I hate your President. And I hate your President because, being gay and female, he appears to hate me.' Shame you need to set up an account to reply, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ashenmote 2005-03-03 01:39 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. I hope he has it comfortable up there on his cross. Where is that comment? I can't find it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2005-03-03 02:48 pm UTC (link)
	O_o It's gone. It was right there on page 5 when I first checked out the wank, and now...deleted? Bah, should have gotten a screenshot or something, although at least I managed to grab the entire comment instead of the first paragraph as I originally meant to do. - same anonymouse who posted up the original comment (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ashenmote 2005-03-03 03:00 pm UTC (link)
	I guess someone was worried about getting all those questions answered, then. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2005-03-06 05:10 am UTC (link)
	It would have been funny if someone had answered those though, if you want to see someone answering at least one of them, you could try looking further downthread. Too bad the OP (*of the comment) won't see it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

limyaael
2005-03-03 05:34 pm UTC (link)

ARGH.

I teach freshmen in college English. I constantly get essays with statements like, "The American government has given people the choice to stand with them or against them; unfortunately, a lot of people chose the second," and "Other countries acknowledge us as superior. The ones who don't are not supporting us in the war on terror." Combine that with ignorance like "Who's Condoleeza Rice?" and "Christopher Columbus's voyage was sponsored by France," and I have to sit on my hands not to go over there. I have to be gentle and patient and kind with my students. I wouldn't have to be over there.

I will not troll, I will not troll...

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(Anonymous)
2005-03-04 09:13 pm UTC (link)

I realise I'm just wanking along with the illiterate wanker here, but I can't let this one pass.

Do they hate me because In my country I have the right to do whatever I want?

Actually, this is remarkably, and presumably unwittingly, close to the mark. Americans (generally speaking) seem to be under the impression that their freedoms are good and everyone else is just jealous.

In fact, a lot of people in other countries - including the more moderate Western ones - find a lot of those freedoms repugnant. For myself, I don't think people should be free to do their own thing and passively or actively contribute to harm to others. I think people have a responsibility to take care of themselves and their families, and, to a more limited degree, distinct others. People who wank about the "freedom" to ride without helmets, or drive without seat belts, or carry life-threatening weaponry, or fire people at will, or abort fully-formed late-term foetuses on demand without having to justify the reason or the delay, don't make me jealous, they make me sick. None of those "freedoms" are really private. They all impact on one or many others.

Now, I don't have a problems with people arguing for those things, in and of itself. I don't agree with people who argue against helmets, for instance - we all pay when someone winds up in the spinal unit, and legal force counteracts peer pressure to be cool and helmet-free - but I don't have a problem with them putting forward their reasoning and the discussion going forward from there.

But I have a huge problem with the life attitude, and cultural attitude, of people who think they're entitled to those things just because they're "free." Not only is it selfish and arrogant, it isn't true. Who the hell is "free"? Do you (general 'you') grow your own food? Build your own home? Generate your own electricity? No? Then you're reliant on others. You're interdependent. They pull their weight for you, you pull your weight for them, and so it goes. We are not free of each other, and since the earliest days of civilised society, we never have been.

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	urbanspaceman 2005-03-05 08:58 am UTC (link)
	WORD. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	blackjackrocket 2005-03-03 11:49 am UTC (link)
	Dayum. My sixth grade teacher hauled me out in the hallway for just that, but even he didn't do that. ...which is probably good, because I would have then proceeded to throw said chair at him. (Reply to this)

kroki_refur
2005-03-03 01:32 pm UTC (link)

Stupid Americans. how come they still exist?

OK, step away from my continent, you're making my continent look stupid.

On the other hand...

AND EUROPEANS SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS

Why, pray tell? Is it because no-one fought for our freedoms? Because we all live in police states? Because some of us don't even know the words to our national anthems (well, if they were better words, we might...)? Oh! I know! It's the teeth, isn't it? It's always the teeth...

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	torakka 2005-03-03 04:52 pm UTC (link)
	Oh! I know! It's the teeth, isn't it? It's always the teeth... And our disgusting, unnatural body hair! (Reply to this)(Parent)

ashenmote
2005-03-03 01:54 pm UTC (link)

My favorite comment:
"As a soap salesman, I believe courtesy and respect should be devoted to every person because initially they are the reflection of our actions."

And all the 'The kids were setting the teacher up! They provoked him! Or maybe he knows someone who sacrificed their life for the flag! Maybe he is a vietnam veteran!' apologists crack me up.
Hey, maybe he was a only child, when he was little! Or he grew up in a bad neighborhood! Or he has an hangover! Or his baseball team lost! Or his wife ran away! Or maybe he just is on crack! Don't blame him!

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	adora_spintriae 2005-03-03 01:59 pm UTC (link)
	As a soap salesman... ... You can call me Tyler. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ashenmote 2005-03-03 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	...And I am free in all the ways that you are not. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	gal_montag 2005-03-04 06:54 am UTC (link)
	And yet you are still a unique and beautiful snowflake, go fig. (Reply to this)(Parent)

telophase
2005-03-03 03:18 pm UTC (link)

Or maybe he knows someone who sacrificed their life for the flag!

Gah. People! Learn the difference between the SYMBOL and the ACTUAL THING!
[/rant]

I went to a Penn and Teller performance in which they used the flag to do some tricks, and it was quite a patriotic piece - they talked about how we had the freedom to do this and the Constitution protected us, etc, as they likened the protections the Chinese have to the sheet of clear acetate they rolled into a tube and disappeared the flag from. The guy sitting in front of my friend as we were watching this had his arms folded and was shaking his head the entire time for that bit, thus demonstrating exactly how clearly he was MISSING the POINT.

Strangely, all the "GODDAMMIT! JESUS! DAMMIT!" stuff from Penn didn't faze the guy at all.

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	phosfate 2005-03-03 03:34 pm UTC (link)
	I could never figure out why, every morning, they insisted that we take a vow to a piece of cloth. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	telophase 2005-03-03 03:53 pm UTC (link)
	Because it's OMG SACRED! Only not ACTUALLY SACRED because we are a GODLESS HEATHEN COUNTRY but any RIGHT-THINKING PERSON can plainly see that it OUGHT to be SACRED!! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ashenmote 2005-03-03 04:06 pm UTC (link)
	I think they wanted to make sure that you know where your towel is. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ladybirdsleeps
2005-03-03 09:06 pm UTC (link)

I used to abstain from taking the pledge because I thought requiring people to say a pledge of allegiance was the stupidest thing ever. And then there was that whole "I just don't understand patriotism, so wouldn't it be taking a false oath?" thing ...

I never got in trouble for it, though. Probably because none of my schools said the pledge in class, only at the beginning of assemblies and things.

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	cadesama 2005-03-03 09:45 pm UTC (link)
	Er, you probably didn't get in trouble because it's illegal to force people to say the pledge -- factiod learned from a Big List o' Educational Rulings, 'cause it's not like schools will bother to teach it. You're supposed to stand out of respect if you don't say it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ladybirdsleeps
2005-03-03 09:51 pm UTC (link)

If you think that schools are that concerned about whether or not it's illegal to make students say the pledge, then ... well, I want to move to where you live. I have no doubt that in some of the schools I attended, that if we said the pledge in class I would have gotten into trouble because they would have noticed that I wasn't.

Oh, they might have backed off if I made threatening steps toward my lawyer, but I certainly would have gotten in trouble. Not officially, but detention is actually easier than having a teacher angry at you, yanno?

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cadesama
2005-03-04 07:25 am UTC (link)

Oddly, despite the fact that they tried to make me lead a prayer at our sixth grade graduation -- I didn't 'cause I didn't know any (although that didn't stop them from making me lead the state pledge) -- they kinda did. They were pretty good at acknowledging the rights of students, even though I'm pretty sure it went over the heads of most of the kids there. I distinctly remember my high school teachers, at least, saying that if we didn't want to say the pledge, we should just stand. Which, given the fact that the pledge was automated over the television and we hardly bothered anyway, wasn't much of a stretch.

Not officially, but detention is actually easier than having a teacher angry at you, yanno?

Yup Unless you really want to mix it up, it usually isn't worth it.

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panthea
2005-03-06 02:03 am UTC (link)

I had a friend in high school who got into a mini-war with her homeroom teacher, because she wouldn't stand for the pledge, and her teacher insisted she should. It got to the point where the teacher penalized her in some way for it-- gave her detention, I think (it was a few years ago, I don't exactly remember)-- and she went to the principal to complain, because it stated pretty clearly in our book of Student Rights that nobody had to stand for the pledge if they didn't want to. And the principal still danced around the subject for a while, telling her that she really ought to stand, even though it said in BLACK AND WHITE that she didn't have to.

...so yeah. You may have the right not to stand, but that doens't mean it's always enforced.

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	adora_spintriae 2005-03-03 01:57 pm UTC (link)
	Heh, we used to do that when we were kids. Except it was more like general nose-picking and yawning when we were meant to be singing. Which of course, just made us look like we were part of an Australian sports team. Which is patriotic! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kroki_refur 2005-03-03 03:18 pm UTC (link)
	If nose-picking=patriotism, then 0-8 year olds are the most patriotic age group in the world. At least in public... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	pragmatic 2005-03-03 03:42 pm UTC (link)
	Back in my day, we all stood up for the national anthem, unless it was against your religion. AND WE ALL LIKED IT THAT WAY. But my good ol' Canadian school was never really a hotbed of student protest. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	lindentree 2005-03-04 01:03 am UTC (link)
	Hee! Did the Hutterite kids go out in the hallway during the anthen at your school, too? Also, I love your icon. (Reply to this)(Parent)

goldberry
2005-03-03 05:16 pm UTC (link)

Wow. It's like my grade nine teacher has a clone. Although he never directed the screaming at me - oh, no. I got the creepy shoulder massages. *Shudder*

My brother and I went to school in the States when I was in grade two and he in grade five. One day when his class had a substitute, she noticed he wasn't covering his heart during the pledge and tried to force him to. He told her he was Canadian, so she sent him to the office. Fortunately, the principal was sane and she wasn't hired again. ;p

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	hellespont 2005-03-03 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	I got the creepy shoulder massages. Our principal used to do that! He eventually got fired. Rumour has it he once punched a kid in the face, too. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	goldberry 2005-03-05 06:18 am UTC (link)
	Unfortunately I'm know this guy is still working there - now he's a gym teacher. He was the kind of guy who would punch a student he didn't like, too. Shudder liek woah (Reply to this)(Parent)

	alpheratz 2005-03-03 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	Heh. When I was in the firth grade I went on an exchange program to the US. I didn't say the pledge (but I did stand up, being really shy), and no one said anything to me. I love sane people. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	alpheratz 2005-03-03 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	That up there is supposed to say "fourth." Christ. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	goldberry 2005-03-05 06:18 am UTC (link)
	My brother was actually standing, too - she was freaking out because he wasn't covering his heart. O.o (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2005-03-03 07:57 pm UTC (link)
	If they try to draft me, I'm going to claim "continuous objector" status. Thanks, Ragdrazi. (Reply to this)

miss_kitten
2005-03-03 10:21 pm UTC (link)

I like how this forum posts demographics next to the user icons.

angrymonkey (Female, 13-17) doesn't know how to spell dictatorial, but she is proficient in the use of the word "ass."

grreat (Male, 13-17) wonders why the stupid Americans haven't been nuked or otherwise cursed out of existence yet. Obviously he has never watched an episode of "The OC."

kristin1716 (Female, 18-29) is glad she's not a teacher because "douche bag spoiled brats" (read: children) tend to ruin things for everyone involved.

dremassa (Male, 18-29) takes an isolationist stance regarding US foreign policy ("AND EUROPEANS SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS.")

broscottie (Male, 30-39) wishes disrespectful, unpatriotic, flag-burning, baby-eating, kitten-murdering, handicapped-teasing kids on anyone who supports the students in question. ("Unpatriotic" was not explicitly stated, but I felt it was strongly implied.)

SURVEY SAYS:

All represented demographics fail.
New test subjects, please.

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	(Anonymous) 2005-03-04 02:46 am UTC (link)
	Last year or maybe the year before, Fr. Kelly FORGOT to do the pledge during announcements one morning, and some people automatically assumed he was OMG SO UNPATRIOTIC! so they had their parents call and bitch. He came on the P.A. next morning and was so angry, it was scary. Something about the pledge/flag/national anthem tends to inspire wankiness in people. (Reply to this)

	gal_montag 2005-03-04 06:54 am UTC (link)
	I am so sick of people trying to guilt with the whole OMG! Peepul fot and dyed 4 ur fredum! Fuck you, seriously, how does it honor those people who died if I don't exercise the freedoms they supposedly died for? Besides, it's possible to love your country and still recognise there are things wrong with it. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	panthea 2005-03-06 02:08 am UTC (link)
	That's the thing I never really got about that argument. Yes, people died for my freedom. They died so I could have the right to do EXACTLY WHATEVER IT IS I'M DOING RIGHT NOW THAT'S PISSING YOU OFF SO DAMN MUCH. So who's disrespecting their sacrifice, again? Me, exercising my freedom, or the person telling me to shut my mouth? (Reply to this)(Parent)