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ADR ([info]tekanji) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2005-03-12 15:37:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Of respect, sexism, patriarchy, and not getting the point
Over in [info]feminist, [info]drinkissdaisy makes what (for a feminist community) should be a fairly innocuous post.

What becomes the centre point of the wank is this:
i was at the bus stop and when the bus came i told the boy that wanted to go in too that he could go first with the hand-gesture that you do when you tell people to go first. and he looked at me weird and insisted i go in first... and i did, but i don't know, it made me feel strange that he wouldn't go in first.

Everything is normal, until [info]ratherberucking decides to give her opinion:
It's not an insult, it's a sign of respect.

She and [info]drinkissdaisy wank all over the post.

ETA: I know a wank thread is the last place you would expect to find voices of reason, but I'm a sucker for linked definitions that clear things up, so I had to share [info]degasita's post:
So, I was frustrated enough to look up an article on the topic.

"the media caricature of feminism would have us believe that a dislike of chivalry translates as an objection on principle to any act of kindness from a man (even if there is reasonable evidence that the good will is genuine and can be returned in a similar rather than complimentary fashion). It would also have us believe that feminists are unable to recognise the difference between policing people's private lives and challenging accepted public conventions... It seems to have been forgotten that it is the assumptions behind many chivalrous acts that make them objectionable to feminists. Below the surface, male chivalry has never truly been in the name of fairness or real respect....Like with many other issues around the politics of power, women have been led to believe that there are only two options: smile sweetly and feel like a lady when he opens the door (thus accepting the price attached) or have it slammed in your face. The message is clear- you're never going to make him respect you as an equal so you'd better accept the consolation prize of chivalry. It's his best offer after all. ...It is not the genuinely non-sexist men who are contributing to women's unhappiness but resentful sexist men who can only be convinced to conduct themselves in a reasonable and well-mannered fashion if there is a patriarchal reward at the end of it... The problem with chivalry is that it just gets in the way of good manners."

read the whole article here:

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2003/02/smug_intentions_richard_and_judy_on_chivalry_


(Post a new comment)


[info]sarajayechan
2005-03-13 01:10 am UTC (link)
These feminists get so caught up in the "Oh, we women have been forced to treat men like kings and cook a good meal for them every night and not be pains, let's revolt by making them miserable!" that they forget men are HUMAN BEINGS just like they are. Respecting men isn't "giving into patriachal society", it's "showing courtesy to other human beings".

I'm starting to regret ever considering myself feminist, if the requirements for feminism are being a pissy bitch about every little thing men do. --;;

(Reply to this)(Thread)


redwarrior
2005-03-13 02:35 am UTC (link)
*applause*

Also, I remember getting bitched at at college for opening doors for people. Before I came out it was, "This PROVES you're a lesbian!" and afterwards, it was, "You're working for the patriarchy OMG!!1!"

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]plazmah
2005-03-13 09:40 pm UTC (link)
Oh god, you too? I was taught to open doors for everyone by my parents, but I got some weird comments from people when I opened doors for guys. *shakes head*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]tekanji
2005-03-13 02:40 am UTC (link)
Respecting men isn't "giving into patriachal society", it's "showing courtesy to other human beings".

Just curious, but which users were actually advocating not respecting men/human beings?

In terms of the two biggest wankers, the OP was all about wanting men to respect her (ie. letting her give them courtesy that they want to give her), whereas her wank-buddy was all about respecting men by letting them "be chivalrous".

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sarajayechan
2005-03-13 02:53 am UTC (link)
I was saying it in general, not about the wank specifically.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]kerikeri
2005-03-13 03:59 am UTC (link)
Hey, if you think feminism is all about women wanting the right to "be pains," I don't think the Feminist Hivemind cares much if you don't consider yourself a member, kthx.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sarajayechan
2005-03-13 04:14 am UTC (link)
Hey, if you think feminism is all about women wanting the right to "be pains

Well, juding by some of the comments seen in feminism lately it sure SEEMS that way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]big_bad_wolf
2005-03-13 02:51 pm UTC (link)
Yeah - until I came on the internet I thought feminism was about getting absolute equality for men and women, and now I find that feminism means trying to put extraneous "y"s into things, defining milk as rape and declaring that "anyone who sympathises with a man might as well be one", which always leaves me staring at my crotch yelling "I SAID NICE THINGS TO MY BOYFRIEND NOW WHERE IS MY PENIS?"

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mistressrenet
2005-03-13 08:41 pm UTC (link)
That's like judging all people who don't have children by [info]childfree on a wanky day.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]adora_spintriae
2005-03-13 01:36 am UTC (link)
Ohnoes! I'd better stop opening doors for old people/women with children/men with their arms full/people in general in case I'm being sexist.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]tekanji
2005-03-13 03:07 am UTC (link)
Naw, just ignore the wankers and go with [info]emmazing's definition:

Sexism: Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender

And:
It is not sexist if one individual happens to hold a door for another.

Or you could disregard what everyone says and do whatever you want. That's always a good choice. Well, unless it's good advice. But people tend to only take advice they like anyway, so I suppose it's a moot point.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ashenmote
2005-03-13 01:39 am UTC (link)
I bet the boy was a professional assassin. Most assassins prefer to stand behind other people!

And after reading all that bickering I believe it would be best if people would just stop opening doors, once and for all.

And found it funny when [info]ratherberucking said "go make me dinner".

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]msmanna
2005-03-13 01:47 am UTC (link)
And found it funny when ratherberucking said "go make me dinner".

Me too :-) I think when the mod said she was freezing the thread because 'you're unable to control yourself' what she really meant to type was 'you win'.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]tekanji
2005-03-13 02:35 am UTC (link)
what she really meant to type was 'you win'.

At wanking, maybe.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]plazmah
2005-03-13 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Hahaha! Icon <3 ... I loved that wank.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]msmanna
2005-03-13 01:45 am UTC (link)
Wow. Y'know, it never ceases to amaze me that some people think of feminists as humourless and uptight. Where *do* stereotypes like that come from?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


redwarrior
2005-03-13 02:35 am UTC (link)
...Obviously from the LJ feminists community. >3

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]amasaglajax
2005-03-13 04:02 am UTC (link)
Yanno, I always thought >3 looked like a cleavage-y bosom. >3

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]kookaburra
2005-03-13 03:59 am UTC (link)
To paraphrase Miss Manners paraphrasing some other person, "We can't all go through the door at once."

No idea what this has to do with the wank, it just popped into my head, and made me laugh.

(Reply to this)


[info]sepiamagpie
2005-03-13 04:29 am UTC (link)
She better hope she never ends up where I live. Most everyone (men and women) opens the door for people. We're like doormen in waiting.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


ataniell93
2005-03-13 06:07 am UTC (link)
I want that cat. So cute!!!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]kijikun
2005-03-13 06:13 am UTC (link)
*pets the crazy looking kitty*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]darkerthanpale
2005-03-13 04:34 am UTC (link)
Don't these people go through the 'door opening dance' where you both go 'no, after you!' about three times, and then you both laugh self-deprecatingly, and one of you will end up going something like 'oh, if you insist!', and thanking the other profusely (or maybe you'll both try to go through at once, cueing sheepish laughter)? This is, like, a staple of my daily life.

Maybe I just live in a very polite place? Everyone I've met holds doors open for everyone else, regardless of gender. I don't understand why people get offended if others hold doors open for them. Hey, it's a nice thing to do, shouldn't it be encouraged? If a bloke holds a door open for me, I don't think 'he's being sexist and oppressing me for I am an all-powerful woman who doesn't need men to hold doors open for her!', I think 'oh, well, that's nice and polite, I'll thank him'.

Correct actions when someone holds a door open for you:

a) smile, go through the door, and thank them for their kindness
b) smile, and tell them that they can go first, and thank them for their kindness

Incorrect action when someone holds a door open for you:

a) anything that involves treating them with any less courtesy than they have shown you.

I'd have thought this was obvious, but maybe that's just me.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]tekanji
2005-03-13 05:09 am UTC (link)
I don't understand why people get offended if others hold doors open for them.

Neither do I, but I've also never met anyone who has. I've seen lots of people (on the feminist community and elsewhere) who were uncomfortable with the idea of "chivalry", but most of them will make the distinction between that and common courtesy. I've also never seen anyone freak out at having someone hold the door.

Most of the kerfluffle I've been seeing on these communities is people coming in and assuming that "I think it's a bad thing when people hold doors because of gender/race/etc issues rather out of common courtesy for all people" = "OMG I THINK HOLDING DOORS IS TEH SEXIST AND MEN ARE TEH EVALLL!!!!!111"

Incorrect action when someone holds a door open for you:

a) anything that involves treating them with any less courtesy than they have shown you.


A-fucking-men to that!

You wouldn't believe the problems I've had holding doors for people (well, I hate to say it, but it's really only the men, most often older men, who give me trouble). You would think that when someone is ahead of you and holds the door open that, I don't know, the best thing to do is walk through it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]annabelle_lee
2005-03-13 05:58 am UTC (link)
[applauds] Thank you! Sometimes I wondered if I was really the only one out there who thought that way. I'm the only one around who seems to do that for anyone these days, just because manners and respect seem to be a dying art.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lindentree
2005-03-13 06:50 am UTC (link)
Oh, you and your fancy-shmancy sense-making and logic!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]necronomist
2005-03-13 04:48 pm UTC (link)
"Don't these people go through the 'door opening dance' ..."

I've gone through that, and the 'oh no I didn't see you' look and holding doors for more than one person when they are busy and I am not.

I thought that was what people did, but people are strange. Then again, with all this talk of 'chivalry,' maybe I can subvert gender roles and become a knight errant.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mistressrenet
2005-03-13 08:45 pm UTC (link)
I've had men flat out refuse to go through doors I held open for them, which is a bizarre, bizarre thing. Dude, the DOOR is IN MY HAND. What's causing me more work? Making letting of the door without clocking your sorry ass with it, and then going through? Or just letting me stand there and hold the door?

I eventually give up and go through though.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]plazmah
2005-03-13 09:49 pm UTC (link)
I remember telling my mother that I didn't mind guys opening doors for me because they saved me the trouble of opening it myseld. Who'd turn down the chance to be lazy? ;)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]teratologist
2005-03-13 08:31 am UTC (link)
I won't let people let me get on the bus before them, myself. I don't want them staring impatiently at my back while I fish my bus pass out of my wallet. I don't want to sit in a window seat and then have them come up and sit in the aisle half of said seat when there are plenty of empty seats all round. I generally don't have people making a federal case out of it, but if some guy decided that he WOULDN'T get on the bus before me, I would tend to think that he was even more paranoid than me, and would take another bus, lest he be planning to blow that one up.

(Reply to this)


[info]gal_montag
2005-03-13 11:08 am UTC (link)
Anybody got a "You! Out of my gender!" icon? Because seriously, mutual respect, maybe some people should try to get all up on it.

(Reply to this)


[info]blackjackrocket
2005-03-13 11:25 am UTC (link)
And what if you open the door for someone of your own gender? What if you open the door for five people in a row? What if you gesture for someone to go first because you want to get that annoying piece of gum off your shoe before you go in?

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[info]visp
2005-03-15 12:53 am UTC (link)
What if you open the door for five people in a row?

You're a dirty, dirty slut.

;)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]blue_linnet
2005-03-14 12:10 am UTC (link)
I wanked a little bit over there (I'm linnetli). I have to side with the feminists here though..I don't understand why the argument always seems to go like 'You know, I am uncomfortable with the idea that men should hold doors for women.' 'How can you have a problem with common courtesy?' It doesn't have anything to do with that..it's the idea that one gender should have different manners than the other, which to me anyway, is illogical.

I've noticed way more guys get weirded out when girls open the door, than feminists get annoyed when guys open the door for them. In fact, I've never actually seen the latter happen, only heard about it.

*shuts up before she starts wanking more*

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]gal_montag
2005-03-17 11:05 am UTC (link)
Man, when I was a college student, people used to pull the doors shut so they wouldn't have to hold them. It was men usually. Chivalry is dead and so is common courtesy.

Personally, I hold the door open for people because that is what you do. My brother for the same reason, male or female, it's polite. I've had people take the door from me and usher me inside. Again, mostly men, and mostly men at least old enough to be my father. Men my own age (middle 20's) just walk on by without so much as a glance or a thank you. I don't think you'll be having to worry too much longer about gender based manners.

And let it be known that I don't expect men to hold the door for me while I walk by, just hold it open so I can catch it because I'd do the same for them. And when I do hold the door, a thank you would be mightly nice. (Although women are guilty of this one too)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


 
   
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