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	rann 2003-10-14 01:25 am UTC (link)
	While I agree that it does indeed suck to hold some Right-wing beliefs in the generally EXTREMELY Left-wing fandoms, as you can be lynched for advocating gun ownership faster than a BNF screeches that she's unappreciated, it's sliiiightly unrealistic to think people will stop trash-talking every Republican, especially by using volume over logic. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	calluna 2003-10-14 05:40 am UTC (link)
	I guess it depends what fandom you're in. Until recently I was only involved in Disney fandoms, and they can be pretty conservative at times. (Must dig up that Gay Days wank...) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: rann 2003-10-14 05:43 am UTC (link)
	Well, yeah, I can kinda see that, if you're keeping to the "clean" side of fandom. n.n;; (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mariagoner 2003-10-21 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	And the rest of us are... what? Dirty, dirty heathens, out to contaminate society? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mariagoner 2003-10-21 05:58 pm UTC (link)
	Um... I think I ought to add a smiley here. :) I'm not actually accusing you of shit flinging... just being sorta funny... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: rann 2003-10-21 07:40 pm UTC (link)
	More like, if you're willing to write about Aladdin and Jasmine getting down and funky, you've probably already said goodbye to some of your more conservative values. n.n (Reply to this)(Parent)

	teratologist 2003-10-14 03:36 am UTC (link)
	This makes me think of the born-again Christians I used to know who would complain about how they were treated by the 'dominant' Wiccans in the Goth scene. Within the narrow context, I could see their point, but really... it didn't seem like a human rights abuse of earth-shaking magnitude. Or even journal-closing magnitude. (Reply to this)

mirabellawotr 2003-10-14 03:56 am UTC (link)

Oh, man, I was so tempted to post this, but was ultimately too lazy. The sheer wankery involved in declaring your membership in a political party and then getting pissed off when people assume that you support that party's political platform is mind-boggling. What, are we supposed to assume that by telling us she's a Republican, she has told us absolutely nothing about herself? "How dare you judge me on what I told you about myself! You people are all big meanies! Who said you could accuse me of thinking like a Republican just because I told you I was one?" I love it. It's like those people who come on Jerry Springer and spill their life stories in grotesque detail and then go "You don't know me!" when someone in the audience calls them on their wankery. (Reply to this)(Thread)

rann 2003-10-14 03:05 pm UTC (link)

"Who said you could accuse me of thinking like a Republican just because I told you I was one?" Well, there's something to that. No one likes to be broadly stereotyped because of an organization to which they belong, even if they choose to belong to it. Just because you partake, affiliate with, or join a group doesn't mean you absolutely adhere to their entire platform 100%, nor are others' views about said platform always exactly in tune with what they are in reality. Saying all Republicans are gay-bashing, Bible-thumping militants is akin to saying all Wiccans are homosexual, spit-on-Jesus poseurs. So, yeah, I can at least see her point on that one. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

mirabellawotr 2003-10-14 03:45 pm UTC (link)

Well... yes and no. I use the term "political platform" rather loosely, understanding that at the national level that covers a hell of a lot of territory and probably no one agrees with every single thing their chosen political party says. But to identify yourself as a member of a political party, by definition, is to say that you support their goals and values overall, or at least find them more congenial than any other political party. When part of those goals and values include rabid, vocal gay-bashing, to the point of introducing gay-hostile legislature and "Marriage Protection Week"-type crap, when you identify with that party, you may not be saying that you completely agree with that but you're at least declaring to the world that you don't find it intolerable, or at minimum that you're willing to overlook it. IMO, if you publicly ally yourself with an organization that seems hell-bent on stripping gays of every civil right they might ever have possessed, you forfeit the right to bitch when you get the anti-gay label slapped on you. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: rann 2003-10-14 03:55 pm UTC (link)

So, by that definition, no admitted Christian has the right to bitch when they're called intolerant and hateful? No admitted fan of rock music and video games is allowed to bitch when they're called a shooting spree waiting to go off? No admitted fan of anime has a right to bitch when they're called a socially maladjusted freak who never sees the sun? No admitted Wiccan is allowed to bitch when they're called a loser just begging for attention? No admitted furry has the right to bitch when they're called an animal-raping waste of oxygen? And before you say "No, what I said wasn't like that", recall that what you said is EXACTLY like that. You're advocating judging an entire group of people on their most radical, outspoken members, and saying that because of those radical, outspoken members, they don't have the right to feel affronted at being lumped in with them and have their values assumed for them by others. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: mirabellawotr 2003-10-14 04:02 pm UTC (link)

You're advocating judging an entire group of people on their most radical, outspoken members I'm advocating judging an entire political party on the political agendas of the people they put in office, whom they voted for over other eligible candidates, and whom they continue to support in the face of political agendas of intolerance. I'm not getting how that's unreasonable. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: rann 2003-10-14 05:30 pm UTC (link)
	Okay, so I get to hold you personally responsible for Clinton lying under oath and sexually harrassing interns? And I get to hold you personally responsible for his staff royally trashing the White House before vacating it? I get to hold you personally responsible for Al and Tipper Gore campaigning for censorship? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	darkrose 2003-10-14 05:37 pm UTC (link)
	And I get to hold you personally responsible for his staff royally trashing the White House before vacating it? Since that never actually happened, then sure. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: mirabellawotr 2003-10-14 05:50 pm UTC (link)

Why are you assuming that I'm a Democrat, or even assuming that I'm American? For the record, I am indeed American but I have no political party affiliation, so you don't get to blame me for much of anything. Look, I'm afraid that no amount of ranting on your part will convince me that it's unfair and unreasonable to assume that the way a person votes tells me something about their politics. You're spooging up the page with your personal issues, and I didn't join otf_wank to have political arguments. Why don't you take the wank to your own LJ? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: rann 2003-10-14 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	If you don't want to have political arguments, you shouldn't make political statements, it's as easy as that. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	darkrose 2003-10-14 06:14 pm UTC (link)
	The same can be said for the original poster, since no one knew that she was a Republican before she posted. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rann 2003-10-14 07:04 pm UTC (link)
	Gee, in what other situation has "If you don't want to be berated for what you are, then just keep it to yourself, no one wants to know" been used? Hmmmm... let me -think-... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

	Re: rann 2003-10-14 07:31 pm UTC (link)
	So is "Republicans have done bad things! All Republicans deserve getting shit!" and expecting everyone to just nod along. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

darkrose 2003-10-14 07:42 pm UTC (link)

Please show me where anyone has said that "All Republicans deserve getting shit," and I will concede your point. I believe that the Republican Party is a force for intolerance, bigotry, and hatred. Does that mean that I think that everyone who votes Republican is intolerant, bigoted, and hateful? Of course not. But the people who run the party are, and they set the direction for it. If you tell me that you're pro-choice and pro-gay-rights and Republican then yes, I'm going to ask why you voted Republican, given that the party platform is explicitly anti-gay and anti-choice, because it doesn't make sense to me. Given that you started the conversation by telling me your party affiliation, I think I'd be correct in believing that you wanted to discuss the matter. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

lizardlaugh 2003-10-16 06:26 am UTC (link)

If you tell me that you're pro-choice and pro-gay-rights and Republican then yes, I'm going to ask why you voted Republican, given that the party platform is explicitly anti-gay and anti-choice, because it doesn't make sense to me Well... maybe because they are economic conservatives who while they don't think the government has a right to their bedrooms, also don't think the government has a right to their wallets either. I'm a devout atheist, militant pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-legal drugs libertarian, but when it comes to voting, I have in the past tended vote more conservative simply because I want government out of my life PERIOD and the place it encroaches on my life the most is in the economic realm. I am pretty well pissed off at the Republican Party at this point, and I will NOT be voting for Bush, however, until recently, I was a registered Republican. I will never be a one or two issue voter, and even if I was, economics will always come before gay issues or even the abortion issue. I am a libertarian (small 'l'), and neither the Republican or Democratic parties represent my political views. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	darkrose 2003-10-14 07:35 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, spare me. You know that's not what I said. I was responding to your comment: If you don't want to have political arguments, you shouldn't make political statements, it's as easy as that. Saying "I am a Republican" is a political statement. No, someone shouldn't be attacked for saying that, but they should expect that it's going to generate political disucssion. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sporky 2003-10-21 10:10 pm UTC (link)

But see, the Republican party is not a fandom or a social group. It is an organized political group, with leadership and a platform. It has published core values. You can't say that the anti-gay people aren't just some fringe people not allied with the Republican movement when one of the leaders of the party endorses them by having marriage protection week. Sure, there are Log Cabin Republicans. But they are very marginalized, and in fact have been excluded by many Republicans. If you look at the legislative agenda, and the policies Republicans support, shouldn't that matter? And if you don't agree with these policies, how can you still consider yourself a Republican? Republicans spend so much time staking out positions with the Religious Right on cultural issues *and advancing them in courts and in legislatures* that I believe these positions can be legitimately considered core values of the Republican party. In that case, it's better to declare yourself a conservative on certain issues, or a social libertarian. The Republican party is opposed to much of the libertarian agenda. Bottom Line: If you don't want to be identified with the agenda and actions of the Republican party, don't call yourself a Republican. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	darkrose 2003-10-14 04:17 am UTC (link)
	Ah. Nothing I like better, especially during a week dedicated to celebrating the fact that I'm inferior because of who I love, than to hear the po' oppressed Republicans complaining about how us liberals done them wrong. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	rann 2003-10-14 03:06 pm UTC (link)
	*cough*Wank*cough* (Reply to this)(Parent)

	visp 2003-10-14 05:32 am UTC (link)
	Well, chances are she's young and stupid, and is Republican just because her daddy was, and so hasn't gotten around to figuring out that she doesn't really support what that party stands for. At least that's the only marginally logical explanation, other than she's just a blithering idiot. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	iammeiam 2003-10-14 07:10 am UTC (link)
	Or, possibly, she's a moderate about social issues and conservative about economic issues. It's apparently a rare position, but it exists, and I know a few people like that who are registered Republicans. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	pyratejenni 2003-10-14 02:54 pm UTC (link)
	THey're about as powerful as the "moderate Iranians" in the old Illuminati! game -- not at all. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	calluna 2003-10-14 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, yes, my boyfriend is one of those. And he complains about Bush more than I do. I keep telling him to come over to the Dark Side; no Republicans care about balancing budgets anymore... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: visp 2003-10-14 07:57 pm UTC (link)
	Possibly, but then she would have said so. Had she said "I only agree with the ecconomics", everyone would have understood and calmed down. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rann 2003-10-14 03:08 pm UTC (link)
	Because you can, of course, only be one extreme or the other. If you're a Republican, you have to be a die-hard one, opposing gay rights, desegregation, and any control over firearms whatsoever. Just like how if you're gay, you can only be an utterly flaming, crossdressing, lisping slut! *splurt* (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: visp 2003-10-14 07:53 pm UTC (link)
	I didn't say that, but judging from her replies, she doesn't seem to have any good explanations for her political leanings, and why that doesn't conflict with her personal views. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sparkysrevenge 2003-11-07 11:53 am UTC (link)

I know this is an old wank, but i really do feel i need to agree. I have a very very good friend. He's gay. He's republican. He likes singing opera and being in plays. AND I'M republican. I write slash. I perform in a community theater, but just some of my views lean me over to the right. AND I am going to whap someone upside the head if they say I'm only a republican because "Daddy voted for Bush." Bush isn't my ideal president, but compared to Gore, he was the lesser of two evils when the voting commenced. I was 16 that year, and at 16, I often argued with my government teacher when I did not have the same views that he basically shoved down my throat. I voted for Sonny Purdue when the Georgia elections were held. Whoop-de-doo. I just think it's stupid some of you are wanking the republicans because we have to walk a thin line and not be called gay-bashers who think no one should be allowed to have an abortion and so on and so forth because our views are not as liberal as the loud minority [or majority, as it so is in the fandoms]. While it was wasn't in her best interest for her to not feel she needed to be careful when discussing political matters, I DO see where she's coming from. I got wanked over at fandom_wank for saying a fandom is no place to showcase your political preference and the very same people who wanked and laughed are the very same people who said EXACTLY WHAT I SAID? That's the highlight of my hypocritical morning. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sorchar 2003-10-14 07:28 am UTC (link)

Personally, having dealt with a lot of stereotypes about my interests, belief system, ancestry, etc., I think it's most productive to learn to shrug those sorts of things off whenever possible. Of course, I say this less than a week after having spammed Pam's LJ with my debate with the ever-lovely cortese over her remarks about the South. So, you know, take it for what it's worth. ;) (Reply to this)

	h0 2003-10-14 07:31 am UTC (link)
	announces that she is so offended that "[t]his is my last update in this journal. I will keep it open to read friends-locked posts and for archiving purposes only." Her journal was a great source of jailbait. Suck. (Reply to this)