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	doyle 2005-05-12 12:22 pm UTC (link)
	Dammit, I have to fight off you AND triforcekt? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Icon love! oxydosic 2005-05-13 02:35 am UTC (link)
	cough Sorry, just had to worship a little. A Simpsons quote on a Lost icon, it's awesome. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	quinctia 2005-05-12 02:24 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I'm all prochoice and that, but it's hard to speak to people who confuse fetus and parasite without banging my head on the wall repeatedly. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kadath 2005-05-12 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	By the strict biological definition, the fetus is a parasite. However, it's such an emotionally-loaded term that I only use it when I want to piss people off, or when I'm choir-preaching. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sarracenia 2005-05-12 05:45 pm UTC (link)
	I dunno. Can you really call something that the body's set up to make a parasite without stretching the definition of a parasite beyond all reason? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kadath
2005-05-12 06:39 pm UTC (link)

It's a separate organism that dwells on or within the host, substists off nutrients from the host, and has a negative impact on the host's health. It's controversial in biology to call a fetus a parasite, but that's because of ethical issues, not that it falls short of meeting the criteria. That reproduction is necessary for the survival of the species as a whole doesn't mitigate the effect on the individual.

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gorogoro
2005-05-12 07:12 pm UTC (link)

I can't say I've ever heard of that particular controversy, and Google scholar gives me nothing.

The way I figure it, production of viable offspring contributes positively to the organism's overall fitness, therefore you cannot technically call a fetus a parasite. And that's after setting aside that the fetus is the same species as the mother.

(Doesn't mean I don't call them parasites at every available opportunity though, heh.)

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kadath
2005-05-12 07:21 pm UTC (link)

Oh, it's not like people are sniping back and forth in the letters columns of journals. It's more of a "dammit, don't say that!" kind of thing--my two bio major roomies used to have arguments about it. I don't see how being of the same species invalidates the classification of parasitism. The males of certain species of fish are parasitic on the females, and this arrangement contributes to species survival, but they're still parasites. People just don't like using a word with negative connotations for the pwecious ickle babies. At which attitude I bite my thumb.

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	morgyne 2005-05-12 07:30 pm UTC (link)
	Well, just because it contributes to the overall fitness of the organism because it makes more offspring doesn't mean the act of harboring the offspring within the body isn't a parasitic action itself. ... Unless we count cravings for bizarre foods, nice hair and nails a worthwhile contribution from the fetus. ;) (Hey, how does google scholar compare to pubmed?) (Reply to this)(Parent)

sarracenia
2005-05-12 07:28 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I know that. My point is it isn't entirely a separate organism, though. The body naturally produces ova in hopes of getting sperm to contribute the other half of the DNA necessary. And when it willingly provides at least part of the material, I just don't see how it can be called a parasite.

Actually, on a similar vein, I want to see if anyone's willing to call a fetus in a parthenogenic species a parasite.

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	kadath 2005-05-12 07:36 pm UTC (link)
	Heh, that's an interesting point. I would, but I'm a layperson. I hadn't considered the matter from a fitness standpoint before, as gorogoro mentioned, so I'm reconsidering my position, but am not entirely convinced. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sarracenia
2005-05-12 07:42 pm UTC (link)

Eh, I'll admit the definition's at least partially right. I just get irritated when people think that it's entirely right. Largely because the conversation then tends to devolve into "Fetuses are parasites, neener neener neener" "No they aren't! Baby-killer!" "Enslaver of women!" "Death cultist!" etc. And speaking as an actual moderate on the issue, I don't freaking care.

*has been reading one to many abortion debates lately*

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	smo 2005-05-12 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	In my experience, there is no such thing as an abortion "debate." Most people have already made up their minds one way or another, and any attempts to change anyone's mind, or even to discuss differing viewpoints calmly and logically, will end in a screaming match. /wank (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	morgyne 2005-05-12 08:12 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think that pointing that out was wank-age :) MY OPINION. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2005-05-12 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	XD Thanks, it's good to know that. MY OPINION! (Reply to this)(Parent)

sarracenia
2005-05-12 08:50 pm UTC (link)

Actually, in my experience, there's a fair number of people who are fairly neutral/indecisive. It's just that it's such a hot-button topic that we tend to get drowned out. Personally, I just hate the extremes on both sides, but would be happy to have a debate on when it's okay or not okay to have an abortion if random pro-choicers/pro-lifers didn't feel the need to be loudly offended.

/wank

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quinctia
2005-05-13 05:30 am UTC (link)

Not really. The biological definition of parasitism pretty much involves members of separate species. It's a form of symbiosis, yet we don't call herds of bison a symbiotic relationship. Besides, even if we DID call it symbiosis, since offspring is a biological benefit, pregnancy would be mutualistic as opposed to parasitic.

(My senior seminar was on symbiosis, so...hate to see the terms thrown around. Most just do it to look smart, and make themselves look pretty ignorant to people like me. Stop being on my side, you're making my side look stupid sorta thing. ^_~)

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quinctia
2005-05-13 05:34 am UTC (link)

Err...to clarify, parasitism is a form of symbiosis that harms one member to another's benefit. Since we don't call "mutualistic" (beneficial to both sides) relationships between the same species symbiosis, we don't call a relationship like that parasitism.

From a purely evolutionary standpoint, even if the offspring were to kill the mother in the process, if the offspring then survived, it would be considered beneficial, since a less fit individual did pass on their genes.

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	kadath 2005-05-13 12:50 pm UTC (link)
	bows I stand corrected. However, I'm still going to call 'em parasites when I want to hork off people who tell me I should have kids. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mael 2005-05-12 06:46 pm UTC (link)
	Confusion would only bother me so much. But it's a deliberately loaded term and deliberately loaded terms piss me off. From both sides. A fetus is not a parasite and a fetus is not a child. A fetus is a fetus. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	visp 2005-05-15 06:58 am UTC (link)
	Oh god, your icon! snickers (Reply to this)(Parent)

	smo 2005-05-12 07:51 pm UTC (link)
	Word. I'd like them to stop being on my side now, plzkthx. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	reinhardt 2005-05-12 02:48 pm UTC (link)
	I think this icon is incredibly appropriate for this particular wank. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	bohicamouse 2005-05-13 07:41 am UTC (link)
	It's Numbuh 86! Kyuuuuuu! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	reinhardt 2005-05-13 02:04 pm UTC (link)
	Yes! I'm rather obsessed with that show at the moment. mumble I need more icon space. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	morgyne 2005-05-12 04:26 pm UTC (link)
	Why is it the people that say to me Science says that life begins at conception are the same people that don't like evolution being taught in the schools? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	smo 2005-05-12 07:52 pm UTC (link)
	I would say they were referring to Christian Science, but if that were true they'd have much better newspapers. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	morgyne 2005-05-12 08:02 pm UTC (link)
	I'm just tired of people treating science like some sort of buffet. I guess my irritation stems with some expecting me to take the ENTIRE bible or whatever verboten, whereas they get to pick whatever parts of science they like. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	smo 2005-05-12 08:16 pm UTC (link)
	For that matter, it bugs me when people treat the Bible like a buffet. If you're going to condemn homosexuality, you'd better be up on your animal sacrifices. And if it's okay to eat pork and not circumcise your kid, you'd also better not be talking smack about OMG TEH GHEI. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chaimonkey 2005-05-12 08:56 pm UTC (link)
	Well I'm tired of people treating the Bible like some sort of buffet. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chaimonkey 2005-05-12 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	...Maybe I should read other people's comments before I post, eh. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	redwarrior 2005-05-12 05:52 pm UTC (link)
	giggles I guess I'm a big stupid liberal when I refer to fetuses as "parasites". And kids. And teenagers. I'm not going to have something living inside me for nine months, and THEN give it all of my goddamn time and money for eighteen more years (and ruin its life in the process). I like being a selfish, sex-crazed ass who identifies as a gay guy, thank you much. >P (Reply to this)(Thread)

	ororo 2005-05-16 06:15 pm UTC (link)
	ditto, except for the identifying as a gay guy part. Of course, I've had sex maybe three times over the last 20 years without any kind of contraception, but the rant where Some of the Anti-Choice People Don't Believe in Contraception or Education is for another time. Someone's bound to wank on it soon. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	funwithrage 2005-05-12 10:48 pm UTC (link)
	More abortion debates should include "your mom" statements. Hell, more debates should. I'd pay to see Your Mom jokes in the next Presidential election. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	restlesshands 2005-05-13 02:56 am UTC (link)
	I agree. Your Mom jokes NEVER get old. EVER. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chaimonkey 2005-05-13 03:39 am UTC (link)
	Your MOM does! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	restlesshands 2005-05-13 04:22 am UTC (link)
	Oh yeah? Well your MOM'S FACE gets old. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	chaimonkey 2005-05-13 04:59 am UTC (link)
	I never see YOUR MOM's face, because it's always going down on me! (Reply to this)(Parent)