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Tiara [my demand] ([info]mydemand) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2005-06-17 13:41:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Wiccan Rituals and Hazing
In [info]wiccan, [info]princess_lilam posts a (somewhat NSFW) description of a Wiccan initiation. Feeling a bit disturbed by it, she asks, (paraphrasing) "is this not humiliating?"

Various members reply saying that it's not humiliating, that usually these rituals are kept secret, but they're par for the course.

[info]pocketstarlet refers to that post in [info]solitarywiccans, saying she feels betrayed and that despite what the other commentators are saying, she would feel uncomfortable and humiliated.

[info]goddess_with_me and [info]silvertree come in and defend the ritual, comparing it to hazing. After queries from [info]rhianon76, [info]pocketstarlet, and myself, they say hazing is positive and it helps bond people together.

The wank has potential to grow. I wank myself too, but it's little. Now.

O_o

(Post a new comment)


[info]radiotrash
2005-06-17 07:33 am UTC (link)
I dunno, if anyone whipped me I would not trust and love them. Actually, I'd probably hate their guts. But then if you're going into the initiation knowing exactly what's going to happen I suspect it's different.

This is why I don't do group religions.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]atalantapendrag
2005-06-17 07:38 am UTC (link)
From what I've read, it's a token flogging. Light lashes, not a serious whipping. Of course, I've never been in a Gardnerian coven, so I'm not speaking from direct experience.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]megmurry
2005-06-17 08:42 am UTC (link)
I suppose that's the difference between someone who's into BDSM and someone who isn't, eh?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]eljuno
2005-06-17 11:16 pm UTC (link)
They're not usually hard lashes, from what I've heard. Enough to draw the blood to the location and cause something of a buzz, not enough to break the skin or cause bruises, basically.

And, you know, if someone held a knife at my throat, I likely wouldn't like them very much. But that happens at most Mason initations (at least, if my dad was telling me the truth.)

It's all about the context.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]clover_elf_kin, 2005-06-26 06:39 am UTC

[info]atalantapendrag
2005-06-17 07:36 am UTC (link)
I don't know who I'm laughing at harder. No, wait, it's definitely pocketstarlet. "Solitary" doesn't mean "clueless" (or at least, shouldn't) and the details of a Garderian initation are laid out in quite a few books. But of course, that would require reading something not written by $ilver Ravenwolf...

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]mydemand
2005-06-17 07:48 am UTC (link)
Most of the people in both threads are arguing that true Garderian rituals are never published anywhere and the person that wrote the initial book (the one mentioned in the [info]wiccan post) is either an oath-breaker, a liar, or both.

Yes, some initiation rituals are detailed. However, in many books (and not Silver Ravenwolf), they don't delve into matters such as the 5-fold kiss, which can be disturbing for a lot of people.

And honestly...hazing is a GOOD thing now?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mydemand, 2005-06-17 07:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2005-06-17 07:51 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2005-06-20 09:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2005-06-20 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2005-06-21 06:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kannaophelia, 2005-06-17 03:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2005-06-18 06:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kannaophelia, 2005-06-18 07:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2005-06-18 07:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kannaophelia, 2005-06-18 07:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2005-06-19 06:36 am UTC
I don't have a neutral icon... please don't take this one as a comment - [info]kannaophelia, 2005-06-19 10:10 am UTC
I always assume the icon's for The Pretty anyway. :3 - [info]greenling, 2005-06-19 08:35 pm UTC
Re: I don't have a neutral icon... please don't take this one as a comment - ataniell93, 2005-06-20 09:39 pm UTC

[info]sorchar
2005-06-17 07:50 am UTC (link)
I was gonna say...dude, you can read about Gardnerian initiations in a bunch of places. I love Gardnerians - they take themselves so seriously.

How many witches does it take to change a lightbulb?

Gardnerians: We can't tell you. It's a secret.
Alexandrians: Quick! Somebody ask a Gardnerian.
Dianics: That's not funny! (Or, I don't know, let's ask Z.)
Baby Pagans: I know I read the answer in a Llewellyn book somewhere!
Solitaries: Hey, you change your lightbulb your way, I'll change mine my way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mydemand, 2005-06-17 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2005-06-17 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmikhailovic, 2005-06-18 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2005-06-17 11:27 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2005-06-19 03:20 am UTC (link)
thanks for the new way to spell $ilver RavingIdiot's name...

(posting anon only cause I have no JournalFen account)

~~Jedine

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]aerobot
2005-06-17 08:16 am UTC (link)
Hazing is positive? Um, yeah. 'Proving' loyalty is something super villians do.

(Reply to this)


[info]rogue
2005-06-17 10:47 am UTC (link)
Hazing = good? Since when? DO NONE OF YOU WATCH SPECIAL VICTIMS UNIT?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]sewingmyfish
2005-06-17 10:59 am UTC (link)
OR THE ZAN AND JAYNA SHORTS ON THE CARTOON NETWORK!!!!
NEXT THEY'LL BE TELLING ME A WICCAN GOPHER MOAT WILL STOP A BEAR!!!!!!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]slackerbitch
2005-06-19 01:32 pm UTC (link)
*busts out Olivia to give these people a Bitch Please and shares the SVU love*

Dude, I would never join something that required hazing. It squicks me out. I can understand making something difficult to join, or requiring hurdles, but - humiliation? No.

Someone made the analogy of it being a serious and sacred ritual, like marriage.

I got married.

It was very serious.

Nobody whipped me.

The end.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lukita
2005-06-17 01:29 pm UTC (link)
Does anyone else gets the stock answer feeling from those people who are for hazing? Any group that have secret initiations is not a group I want to be a part of, especially if they call themselves a religion.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]made_by_kali
2005-06-17 02:21 pm UTC (link)
I felt the same way about the Greek groups on campus. I don't need to be humiliated to feel like I belong (nor do I want to have to pay money to be friends with people).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2005-06-17 02:29 pm UTC

[info]ragnarok
2005-06-17 03:50 pm UTC (link)
See, I'm not sure that I'd use the word hazing for it. It has a really negative connotation, that in my experience, it doesn't deserve.

If it's done properly, and the person has been prepared for it, and the steps discussed, it's actually a moving experience.

I also should mention that any coven worth belonging to will modify said steps to accomodate anyone who truly has a problem with them, especially in cases of past physical or sexual abuse.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lukita, 2005-06-17 06:08 pm UTC

[info]ragnarok
2005-06-17 02:08 pm UTC (link)
will not wank, will not wank

Ah, screw it.

I hate other Wiccans. I really, really do.

1. Doreen Valiente, who was Gerald Gardner's first High Priestess, got her snit on when he replaced her because she wasn't young and nubile, and published her book of shadows.

2. Gardnerian Wicca is ritualized S&M in some cases. If it floats your boat, cool. If not, that's fine too, but with all the books and internet sites online that detail it, you should pretty much know what you're getting into.

3. Most initiations have a certian level of secrecy, but most of them spell out what you're in for ahead of time. Each step has a purpose, or symbolic meaning. An initiation to a coven is usually considered your birth into this family, thus the tradition of coming in naked and helpless.

And, I'm going to stop now, because the more I type, the more I want to slap other Wiccans.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2005-06-19 03:22 am UTC (link)
Aw, c'mon, tell us about the time Unca Gerry initiated somebody with a cribbage board for a paddle, all spur of the moment and stuff...

You an' me an' Aiden Kelly, we're competing for the I hate wiccies trophy.

~~Jedine

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mastervex
2005-06-17 02:37 pm UTC (link)
My high school Latin club had a "secret initiation". It involved drinking V8 tomato juice and walking barefoot through a plastic tub of water, while people pretended it had something to do with Roman myths. It wasn't so much scary or humiliating as terribly lame.
Anyway, dunno about anyone else, but I'm not gonna be real trusting of anybody who claims hazing is necessary and positive.

(Reply to this)


[info]threegoldfish
2005-06-17 03:31 pm UTC (link)
True hazing that involves physicial and/or mental harm is not cool. But some of the stuff that I did to join my sorority which is now considered hazing was just *fun*. Scavenger hunt around the city? Fun! Cooking a giant meal for my sisters? Fun! Singing stupid songs? Repeative sometimes, but still fun! Maybe it helped that I had a healthy perspective on how some stuff was absurd and silly and did not take it at all seriously.

Now people just sit around and are like, "Wanna?" "Sure." "Give us money." "okay." "Here's your shirt." Blah.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2005-06-17 06:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]threegoldfish, 2005-06-17 06:13 pm UTC
You're all worthless and weak!
[info]singe
2005-06-17 05:55 pm UTC (link)
*WHAP!*

Thank you, Goddess, may I have another?!

*WHAP!*

Thank you, Goddess, may I have another?!

*WHAP!*

Thank you, Goddess, may I have another?!

*WHAP!*

Thank you, Goddess, may I have another?!

*WHAP!*

Thank you, Goddess, may I have another?!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: You're all worthless and weak! - (Anonymous), 2005-06-17 06:19 pm UTC
Re: You're all worthless and weak! - [info]singe, 2005-06-17 06:35 pm UTC

[info]gorogoro
2005-06-17 09:50 pm UTC (link)
I'd never heard of the "fivefold kiss" before, but now that I have...

Doesn't that sound like a great way to spread herpes around the coven?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2005-06-19 10:58 pm UTC

[info]ehann
2005-06-18 02:44 am UTC (link)
Maybe it's me, but I find the need to have violence associated with a religion that's supposed to be loving and kind, very disturbing. ( Now I'm really gonna wank--) I mean, isn't one of the tenets 'An it harm none, do as ye will'?

Yikes.

I'll stay solitary, thanks.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amxjm, 2005-06-18 08:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ragnarok, 2005-06-18 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2005-06-18 08:39 pm UTC

[info]annabelle_lee
2005-06-18 04:23 am UTC (link)
What the...? Somebody, hit me with the clue bat, stat!

(Reply to this)


[info]greenling
2005-06-18 06:20 am UTC (link)
Er, seems fairly straightforward to me. "You have to learn to trust us if you're going to learn from us, therefore, we'll do scary things that mean no real harm and if you come out of it alright, you obviously trust us." They even say that in the post.

As for the five-fold kiss, that's even mentioned in the Laws thingy, and anyone who can mistake a light kiss on the surface for oral sex is more of a perv than anyone actually involved. o.O

(Reply to this)


[info]didodiva
2005-06-22 03:46 am UTC (link)
I love how that person near the end is all snippy when she mentions the 5 fold kiss. "Yes there's genital kissing involved and someones even intercourse. If you don't like it than screw you, you poseur!"

I'm not Wiccan, but if I decided to go that way and was going have to be having unprotected causal sex to join a coven, there's no way I'd join. That strikes me as a world of difference from the caste underwear line kiss someone else mentioned.

(Reply to this)

  
   
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