Finally, a wank from a community with just as much vitriol, ranting, and wanking, but isn't childfree. Wow, imagine that.

aint_no_nothin posts to customers_suck:

What do you usually tip pizza drivers?

I love it when I drive an order and they call in oh, I don't know $35.14 of food and when I get to the door $35.14 EXACTLY is waiting for me. Their excuse: "Oh we're poor right now, sorry bout that"


DON'T ORDER FOOD WHEN YOU'RE POOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

182 comments follow, but the entire first page largely consists of agreements and solipsistic comments about people's own tipping habits. On the second page, however, kwanboa chimes in with Some of us poor college students view pizza as a special treat. We only order it when we DO have enough money to tip the driver. We cook the rest of the time.

How novel.

And it all goes rapidly downhill from there. Not as prolonged as other wanks, but it makes up for it in condescension.

BONUS: The poor chime in! More snark and condescension follow!

	Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

(Post a new comment)

rogue 2005-10-29 05:44 am UTC (link)

If I remember correctly, delivery services at pizza places began as a courtesy to people so that they ate there more often, opposed to XYZ competator. Now places charge delivery fees. There's one store nearby who has an add in the phone book that actually says "Tipping Required For Delivery Orders" - and they charge a delivery fee. So now I just call in and pick up my pizza myself, because I don't want to tip the driver on top of the delivery fee, which used to not exist. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - moonjaguar, 2005-10-29 05:59 am UTC

(no subject) - moonjaguar, 2005-10-29 06:06 am UTC

(no subject) - rogue, 2005-10-29 05:06 pm UTC

	dreamtoday 2005-10-29 05:47 am UTC (link)
	pfft. everyone knows the poor shouldn't try to live above their station and order gourmet food like pizza. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - selenis, 2005-10-29 09:36 pm UTC

	the_wanlorn 2005-10-29 06:12 am UTC (link)
	delivery charges are only a dollar if they exist at all. =O So, wait, if it's only a dollar, where is the other 4 bucks that gets tacked on going?? There are so, so many things wrong with the wank. So many. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - obscurestyle, 2005-10-30 11:13 am UTC

oneiropolos 2005-10-29 06:55 am UTC (link)

Honestly, I give about two or so dollars to the pizza delivery people. I was surprised to see people giving five or more. That seems a bit much to me, but hey, if people want to be that generous, more power to them! What I don't get is the people who snipe at those who say they just want a dollar. Really. A dollar. It's not that much. You just spent 15-20 on dinner, and you can't give ONE dollar? What if the pizza had been a dollar more? Would these people have decided not to get it because they couldn't afford it then? Or would they have scrounged up another dollar because they really wanted that pizza? I mean, honestly, I understand that for some people pizza really IS a special and rare treat and maybe they can't afford to tip a buck. But alot of these people just honestly sound like the "I'm not going to tip because I don't HAVE to. Nyah." types. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - jrs1980, 2005-10-29 05:23 pm UTC

(no subject) - kadath, 2005-10-29 07:37 pm UTC

(no subject) - altoidsaddict, 2005-10-29 09:30 pm UTC

(no subject) - oulangi, 2005-10-30 07:14 am UTC

ladysorka 2005-10-29 07:05 am UTC (link)

...I give to delivery drivers the same thing I give to waiters and cab drivers, regardless of actual service. 15%, rounded out to the nearest dollar. I might give a little more if it's exceptional service, or about 10% if it's really, really horrible, but... 15%. It's a rule. And easy to do in my head. Of course, really, if I'm short on cash and am really craving pizza... it's not delivery. It's Digiorno. (Reply to this)

arymabeth 2005-10-29 07:31 am UTC (link)

The ones whining about living the dorms crack me up. Eating decent food doesn't require any sort of cooking. Fruit, peanut butter, bread, crackers, and most vegetables can be kept unrefrigerated and eaten raw. And I can state from personal observation that if you're desperate enough, ramen can be eaten raw. And, is my experience really skewed or something, because I've never heard of dorms not allowing microwaves. Every place I looked at while applying either included them in the dorm room or offered them for rent. ::shrug:: (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-29 07:44 am UTC

(no subject) - lazulisong, 2005-10-29 07:58 am UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-29 08:01 am UTC

(no subject) - wankismyfandom, 2005-10-29 08:10 am UTC

(no subject) - tangentialone, 2005-10-30 02:12 am UTC

(no subject) - chibikaijuu, 2005-10-29 05:16 pm UTC

(no subject) - pokecheck, 2005-10-30 01:36 am UTC

(no subject) - lindentree, 2005-10-30 06:28 pm UTC

(no subject) - jrandomlurker, 2005-10-29 06:18 pm UTC

(no subject) - palefire, 2005-10-31 09:20 pm UTC

(no subject) - eljuno, 2005-10-29 08:03 am UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-29 08:07 am UTC

(no subject) - eljuno, 2005-10-29 08:10 am UTC

(no subject) - hysteria, 2005-10-29 08:13 am UTC

(no subject) - the_wanlorn, 2005-10-29 05:06 pm UTC

(no subject) - hristaesir, 2005-10-29 06:07 pm UTC

(no subject) - nightwalker, 2005-10-29 11:40 pm UTC

(no subject) - tangentialone, 2005-10-30 02:22 am UTC

(no subject) - narcissam, 2005-10-30 04:16 pm UTC

(no subject) - kijikun, 2005-10-30 04:18 am UTC

(no subject) - rachel_pi, 2005-10-30 07:44 am UTC

(no subject) - princessdot, 2005-10-30 08:34 am UTC

(no subject) - issendai, 2005-10-30 02:10 pm UTC

	kannaophelia 2005-10-29 07:40 am UTC (link)
	This kind of thing makes me grateful I live in a culture in which tipping is extremely rare and definitely not expected. ~head hurts~ (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - hysteria, 2005-10-29 07:52 am UTC

(no subject) - kannaophelia, 2005-10-29 08:41 am UTC

(no subject) - hysteria, 2005-10-29 08:52 am UTC

(no subject) - notjo, 2005-10-29 12:08 pm UTC

(no subject) - hereforthewank, 2005-10-29 04:52 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-29 06:13 pm UTC

(no subject) - aerobot, 2005-10-29 02:40 pm UTC

(no subject) - emlan, 2005-10-29 07:29 pm UTC

(no subject) - chief, 2005-10-29 11:51 pm UTC

felinephoenix 2005-10-29 07:49 am UTC (link)

Now I feel bad about not tipping drivers, I didn't know that was a thing you were supposed to do. As for the wank, I can't get over paying $34 or more for pizza. Maybe I'm naive but that seems like a lot. How many pies would that be? Because it'd better be enough to feed me for a few days. Also, I guess I can never eat pizza again, since I'm a poor college kid now. Pizza, why hast though forsaken me? (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - hysteria, 2005-10-29 07:54 am UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-29 07:58 am UTC

(no subject) - hysteria, 2005-10-29 08:11 am UTC

(no subject) - romana03, 2005-10-29 10:53 am UTC

(no subject) - cat_mcdougall, 2005-10-29 12:05 pm UTC

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-29 01:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - romana03, 2005-10-29 04:11 pm UTC

(no subject) - madelfdisease, 2005-10-30 10:45 pm UTC

(no subject) - mmanurere, 2005-11-01 12:46 am UTC

(no subject) - braisinhussy, 2005-10-29 03:12 pm UTC

(no subject) - hysteria, 2005-10-29 05:14 pm UTC

(no subject) - rowan, 2005-10-29 07:20 pm UTC

(no subject) - braisinhussy, 2005-10-31 12:48 am UTC

(no subject) - scootermcgaffin, 2005-10-29 01:03 pm UTC

(no subject) - isobelsomething, 2005-10-29 01:54 pm UTC

(no subject) - kijikun, 2005-10-30 04:28 am UTC

(no subject) - aerobot, 2005-10-29 02:44 pm UTC

(no subject) - jrs1980, 2005-10-29 05:27 pm UTC

(no subject) - annabelle_lee, 2005-10-30 04:15 am UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-30 12:05 pm UTC

(no subject) - annabelle_lee, 2005-10-31 12:07 am UTC

(no subject) - hotpinkdragones, 2005-10-29 05:58 pm UTC

(no subject) - tangentialone, 2005-10-30 02:36 am UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-30 11:59 am UTC

(no subject) - frequentmouse, 2005-10-30 04:59 pm UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-30 05:08 pm UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-30 05:10 pm UTC

(no subject) - frequentmouse, 2005-10-30 05:55 pm UTC

(no subject) - yubsie, 2005-10-30 02:56 pm UTC

(no subject) - lindentree, 2005-10-30 06:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-31 04:33 pm UTC

	felinephoenix 2005-10-29 07:54 am UTC (link)
	And for those that don't have feet, there are always other options that catering to laziness by ordering delivery. Wait, what? Is this guy saying people who don't have feet are lazy? ...Yes. Yes, I think he is. It's bad karma for me to wish he's so lazy he loses legs in a car accident, isn't it? (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-29 07:55 am UTC

(no subject) - scootermcgaffin, 2005-10-29 01:06 pm UTC

(no subject) - felinephoenix, 2005-10-30 12:06 pm UTC

(no subject) - phosfate, 2005-10-31 02:26 pm UTC

	Must resist urge to reply... must resist... romana03 2005-10-29 10:34 am UTC (link)
	http://www.livejournal.com/community/customers_suck/13240122.html?thread=163099194#t163099194 Then you should take a fucking cab to the pizza place or ride a bike or get a friend to drive you or FLY ON SUPERMAN'S ANUS HAIRS if you want pizza so bad yet refuse to pay the driver for their trouble. And there was me thinking delivery drivers got wages. (Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Must resist urge to reply... must resist... - dracothelizard, 2005-10-29 11:58 am UTC

Re: Must resist urge to reply... must resist... - tardis, 2005-10-29 03:17 pm UTC

Re: Must resist urge to reply... must resist... - jrs1980, 2005-10-29 05:37 pm UTC

Re: Must resist urge to reply... must resist... - arymabeth, 2005-10-29 05:45 pm UTC

	sharps 2005-10-29 11:30 am UTC (link)
	I've never tipped anyone for a takeaway service... Poor student, yada yada. Mind you, I don't eat takeaways a whole lot. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - isobelsomething, 2005-10-29 01:55 pm UTC

(no subject) - sharps, 2005-10-29 10:34 pm UTC

(no subject) - urbanspaceman, 2005-10-30 01:49 am UTC

(no subject) - sharps, 2005-10-31 01:14 pm UTC

cat_mcdougall 2005-10-29 12:28 pm UTC (link)

This really makes me want to wank about it. Sometimes your budget just is that tight that you can't tip. Or go pick up yourself. (Free delivery is hella cheaper than $3 a gallon for gas!) And what about a small emergency? Like, I got sick, ordered pizza because I was too sick to cook, too sick to supervise the eldest kid cooking, and just ordered out so that the kids could eat and would be quiet so I could rest. I was lucky and had just enough for one medium pizza to feed the kids. And that was scraping things together. And before you ask, no family to call and only one friend who was working. Pizza delivery is a difficult thing to tip. Especially when you have a delivery charge on top of the order, and then expected to tip? I'm so glad I just buy frozen pizza now.... (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-29 01:01 pm UTC

(no subject) - cat_mcdougall, 2005-10-29 01:09 pm UTC

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-29 02:20 pm UTC

snacky 2005-10-29 02:11 pm UTC (link)

What planet do you live on where pizza is required for survival? Are you perhaps a ninja turtle, capable of subsisting only on overpriced bread and cheese? Xellchiri is my new hero. Karnythia is an idiot. You tip your food service people in the US, that's how it works. Period. End of story. You don't like it? Can't afford it? Don't order delivery or eat at restaurants where there are service people. Or move to a place where tipping isn't required. Obviously, none of the "wah-wah-wah I'm so poor I can only afford $12 for pizza (that I deserve) AND NOT A PENNY MORE!" complainers have ever worked in the food service industry. Or they'd know that lousy or non-existent tipping doesn't go unnoticed, or pass without a reaction. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - vigilanterodent, 2005-10-29 04:58 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-29 06:19 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-29 07:14 pm UTC

(no subject) - esorlehcar, 2005-10-29 04:58 pm UTC

(no subject) - funwithrage, 2005-10-29 07:20 pm UTC

(no subject) - madelfdisease, 2005-10-30 10:55 pm UTC

(no subject) - dodyskin, 2005-10-29 10:22 pm UTC

(no subject) - esorlehcar, 2005-10-29 10:45 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-29 11:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - darkrose, 2005-10-30 12:04 am UTC

(no subject) - mathilde, 2005-10-30 01:10 am UTC

(no subject) - darkrose, 2005-10-30 01:38 am UTC

(no subject) - mathilde, 2005-10-30 11:47 am UTC

(no subject) - mmanurere, 2005-11-01 12:56 am UTC

(no subject) - mathilde, 2005-11-01 01:01 am UTC

(no subject) - chief, 2005-10-30 12:11 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-29 07:11 pm UTC

(no subject) - platedlizard, 2005-10-30 01:27 am UTC

(no subject) - narcissam, 2005-10-30 04:21 pm UTC

(no subject) - threegoldfish, 2005-10-30 08:46 pm UTC

(no subject) - here4tehwank, 2005-11-01 05:47 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-31 07:06 am UTC

	ecchaniz0r 2005-10-29 02:26 pm UTC (link)
	Okay, I know I should not be laughing at _mathlete's nobody's going to throw you in jail, but your pizza's getting jizzed on next time, but because the word 'jizzed' is funny to me and I doubt very much that he'd ACTUALLY stoop to fapping on the pizza...heeeee. *is twelve* (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - snacky, 2005-10-29 02:28 pm UTC

(no subject) - singe, 2005-10-29 03:51 pm UTC

(no subject) - coreopsis, 2005-10-29 04:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - snacky, 2005-10-29 05:27 pm UTC

(no subject) - frequentmouse, 2005-10-29 05:35 pm UTC

(no subject) - coreopsis, 2005-10-29 09:15 pm UTC

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-30 05:33 am UTC

(no subject) - annabelle_lee, 2005-10-30 04:26 am UTC

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-30 05:37 am UTC

(no subject) - annabelle_lee, 2005-10-30 05:59 am UTC

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-30 05:24 am UTC

(no subject) - mmanurere, 2005-11-01 01:01 am UTC

	eilan 2005-10-29 02:27 pm UTC (link)
	People tip 5 dollars and more??? Remind me to never move to the US. I like my 1 to 2 Euro tips for pizza boys/girls and waitresses. Then again, pizza places pay the gas for their drivers and waitresses own mpre than I did as a cashier, so well... (Reply to this)

tardis 2005-10-29 03:48 pm UTC (link)

"Don't order food when you're poor?" Nice. And don't live in New Orleans either, right? Some people are just worse off than you. I doubt missing out on $3.00 is going to completely break either of your banks, but I know when you're poor you are counting every penny even if you don't use every penny. But you can tell the OP wanted to start something under his question of "how much do you tip?" It's customers_suck not small_details! Either way, it's fun to see people get their panties in a bunch about poor people eatting pizza when they could eat ramen everyday for so much less. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - singe, 2005-10-29 03:55 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-30 12:46 am UTC

(no subject) - tardis, 2005-10-30 01:12 am UTC

	hereforthewank 2005-10-29 05:01 pm UTC (link)
	I love how karnythia keeps saying, "You're assuming every place/one has microwave/fridge/car/cabs/etc." Where is she living that she has none of these things? Under a rock? And if so, how is she getting her internet to work under there? (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - cat_mcdougall, 2005-10-29 05:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - funwithrage, 2005-10-29 07:22 pm UTC

(no subject) - cat_mcdougall, 2005-10-29 07:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - nevadafighter, 2005-10-30 12:04 am UTC

(no subject) - cat_mcdougall, 2005-10-30 12:06 am UTC

(no subject) - annabelle_lee, 2005-10-30 07:10 am UTC

(no subject) - hotpinkdragones, 2005-10-31 05:27 am UTC

(no subject) - the_wanlorn, 2005-10-29 05:59 pm UTC

(no subject) - hereforthewank, 2005-10-29 06:42 pm UTC

(no subject) - the_wanlorn, 2005-10-29 08:06 pm UTC

(no subject) - hotpinkdragones, 2005-10-29 06:06 pm UTC

(no subject) - hereforthewank, 2005-10-29 06:45 pm UTC

(no subject) - princessdot, 2005-10-30 08:59 am UTC

(no subject) - sharps, 2005-10-29 10:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - hereforthewank, 2005-10-29 10:37 pm UTC

(no subject) - sharps, 2005-10-30 12:24 am UTC

(no subject) - tardis, 2005-10-30 01:15 am UTC

psychofangirl 2005-10-29 05:13 pm UTC (link)

When I pay, I generally leave around a dollar for a tip whether there's a delivery fee or not. It might not be much, but I always thought your should leave something for a delivery person since they're bringing you hot food. My mother leaves nothing because she never thought you had to tip a delivery person(she's Greek). I consider myself pretty cheap, but I always try to leave a tip. Some people don't leave tips. Yes, that sucks, but there's plenty of people that do. As for the poor, if they can manage to have some treats that make their lives better, then more power to them. Especially since it seems to piss off a lot of people. Heh. (Reply to this)

	krazycat 2005-10-29 06:16 pm UTC (link)
	No one is expected to tip the driver over here. And the delivery fee tends to be about $8, which I'd say is more than enough already, thanks. (Reply to this)

smo 2005-10-29 06:38 pm UTC (link)

Okay, my two cents, and then I will STFU about it: It sounds to me like what the OP was trying to say (albeit not in the most tactful way) was not that people shouldn't get pizza if they're poor, but that they shouldn't get pizza if it is currently beyond their means. It is not impossible to be poor and also to have enough money for delivery pizza plus tip. However, if one is having a Bad Money Day (which, believe me, I have had more than my share of lately), one should perhaps rethink one's decision to make the pizza delivery person schlep a phone bill's worth of delivery pizza over to one's residence and then not tip them. /two cents (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - funwithrage, 2005-10-29 07:25 pm UTC

(no subject) - nevadafighter, 2005-10-30 12:02 am UTC

(no subject) - smo, 2005-10-30 12:19 am UTC

(no subject) - ecchaniz0r, 2005-10-30 05:44 am UTC

(no subject) - smo, 2005-10-30 01:44 pm UTC

(no subject) - loopywafflehead, 2005-10-30 09:35 am UTC

(no subject) - smo, 2005-10-30 01:28 pm UTC

(no subject) - lurker32, 2005-10-30 09:36 pm UTC

(no subject) - loopywafflehead, 2005-10-31 11:36 am UTC

(no subject) - smo, 2005-10-31 03:12 pm UTC

(no subject) - palefire, 2005-10-31 09:39 pm UTC

romana03 2005-10-29 08:49 pm UTC (link)

*orders pizza* ... *collects* Damn you, wankers! I felt compelled to get off my arse. However, I think not tipping would be perfectly acceptable here, since the delivery driver advert in the window of my local pizza shop stated £5.50 an hour if you use the company car and £8.00 if you used your own. That's more than I was getting paid last year, and who thinks to tip Post Office counter staff, eh? ;) *scoffs* Yum! (Reply to this)

	drworm 2005-10-29 09:36 pm UTC (link)
	I used to know a guy who would leave waiters these, like, big plastic disks with the words "HERE'S YOUR FUCKING TIP" emblazoned on them. So, you know, even when you get shitty tippers... you could always be dealing with that guy. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - sewingmyfish, 2005-10-29 11:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - moonpigeon, 2005-10-30 12:27 am UTC

(no subject) - vigilanterodent, 2005-10-30 02:06 am UTC

(no subject) - cairea, 2005-10-30 03:43 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-30 03:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - cairea, 2005-10-30 06:30 pm UTC

(no subject) - miss_arel, 2005-10-31 07:12 am UTC

(no subject) - cairea, 2005-10-31 07:17 am UTC

(no subject) - jrs1980, 2005-10-30 04:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - princessdot, 2005-10-30 09:03 am UTC

(no subject) - sewingmyfish, 2005-10-30 01:04 pm UTC

	mistal 2005-10-29 10:27 pm UTC (link)
	I get where the OP is coming from. My dad used to do delivery and the restaurant didn't supply a car. You can imagine the number of car we went through. So tip can be important, delivery person don't make a fortune (well my dad didn't). So I always give a nice tip, around 4$...and that's without the 2$ delivery charge. (Reply to this)

the_merf 2005-10-29 11:26 pm UTC (link)

Am I the only person who decided on pizza for dinner tonight? (Yes, I tipped the driver.) Haven't any of these people heard of using Visa/debit card** when they're short on cash? Granted, I live (not happily) in an urban area where these sorts of conveniences tend to pop up first, but almost every place, chain and local, takes Visa (or MC or AMEX or Discovery). I know cash tips are preferred, since a tip left on a credit card slip has to be reported, but a tip added to a Visa bill is better than nothing at all, or so I assume. **Look, I know that some people might not have a VISA (or a debit card), but I'm going to assume that those cases are truly exceptional, and I'm going to assume that most of the beleaguered college students in question certainly have access to some sort of plastic. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - cleolinda, 2005-10-29 11:44 pm UTC

(no subject) - telesilla, 2005-10-30 12:12 am UTC

(no subject) - jetamors, 2005-10-30 01:38 am UTC

(no subject) - mmanurere, 2005-11-01 01:09 am UTC

(no subject) - yubsie, 2005-10-30 03:50 am UTC

(no subject) - ravenscanary, 2005-10-30 04:50 am UTC

(no subject) - yubsie, 2005-10-30 02:38 pm UTC

(no subject) - jrs1980, 2005-10-30 04:34 pm UTC

annabelle_lee 2005-10-30 04:57 am UTC (link)

This wank reminds me of this diner I used to go to when I moved in with my older sister for a while as her nanny. I'd always stop by there for a soda or coffee or something. One time, I took the kids over because there wasn't any food in the house, she was at work, and I'd scraped together thirty bucks of my own money. I added things up in my head, told the kids to pick out things that we could afford, made sure I had the tip, and for some reason, I ended up with a bill that was twice as much as I'd figured. I had just enough to pay; hell, I gave them my last penny and I was mortified I didn't have enough to tip. I told the waitress she'd been great and I wished I could give her the tip, but I had just spent all my money. She told me not to worry about it because she knew how it was. The next time I showed up at the diner, I was given a free meal. Why? Because the waitress had overcharged me on accident. I still left a tip because I wasn't expecting someone to do that for me. Moral of the story: Sometimes shit happens and you can't pay at tip and sometimes people will sympathize because you take the time to say something. It's not whether or not you can or can't afford something; it's how you treat people whether you can or can't. Or something. I need another drink. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - palefire, 2005-10-31 09:45 pm UTC

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