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	cimorene111 2003-11-17 01:21 pm UTC (link)
	but what about the bitchy icons-don't-matter broken records? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: quinctia 2003-11-17 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	There's already plenty of communities for those. They tend to harbor the icon bitches. ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sagralisse 2003-11-17 03:24 pm UTC (link)
	Yay! (Reply to this)

	I dunno, man karmakaze 2003-11-17 05:06 pm UTC (link)
	I usually find that the "it's just an icon and you don't own the source material anyway, nyah nyah nyah!" contingent are equally wanky as the icon police. (Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: I dunno, man quinctia 2003-11-17 05:25 pm UTC (link)

Because of their logic or because of their inflappingly not giving a damn? Nah, I get that it's slightly wanky to make claims like that if you don't make any icons at all. But if you're an artist who does more than just screencap, it makes perfect sense to think the croppers are overly whiny. ^_~ This is mainly for icon makers that are sick of people making a bit deal about it. If it's not for you, then don't visit. There was just plenty of people interested in this and I wanted them to know I finally made it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I dunno, man karmakaze 2003-11-17 05:39 pm UTC (link)

Largely it's because most of the times I run into the "nyah nyah" folks, they're trolling the icon boards, and because I find the whole "We're not wrong because you're stealing too" argument incredibly wanky. Livejournal is primarily a social environment. Right now, the lj-userpic culture expects crediting as the default. Whether you agree with the cultural default or not doesn't change that that's the way it is. When you're part of a social group and deviate from the norms, people get upset. You don't have to play by the local norms, but it seems pretty wanky of people to get appalled and defensive when they deviate from local norms and *gasp* actually get called on it. It's like the kids who dress aggressively goth and complain when they get stared at. (Mind you, the "fashion police" who actively try to stop them are just as bad.) There's a lot of wank on both sides. Note that I am applying absolutely no moral value judgement to crediting or not crediting. I make (or crop and resize) all my own icons anyway, which seems to exempt me from crediting, and (aside from enjoying the ego-boo when I get compliments) really don't care or check whether people credit me. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I dunno, man quinctia 2003-11-17 05:44 pm UTC (link)

I find the whole "We're not wrong because you're stealing too" argument incredibly wanky. But why? I think it's extremely disrespectful to take someone else's intellectual material, slap a filter and a blinkie on it, and expect to not only be lavished with compliments, but be given credit for it, when the majority of work was done by someone else. If you credit ALL your sources, then of course you have every right to ask others to then credit you. See, I icon a lot for the Final Fantasy series. And the iconners will steal tons of fanart and never ever credit it. Which is sorta disgusting then when they turn around and insist to have their own ego fed because they typed someone else's song lyrics on top of the pic. ;) Basically the idea is us, the members, providing free use icons that don't require crediting to buck the trend. I, as an artist, feel absolutely horrified that the community expects credit when they don't really have the right to claim it. This is basically saying "We have community maintainers insisting that people not only credit the stuff they made themselves, but how they do it. They've gone way too far, and it's time to show them." It's not really for bitching about the bitching. That's just a premium. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: I dunno, man quinctia 2003-11-17 07:13 pm UTC (link)

Hmm...you know, I couldn't really say. Since I personally don't care if people credit my artwork (my point is the artist reserves all rights to ask for credit, namely why I want a community of people who don't need icon credit ^^), I haven't really thought of that. I personally would think if you numbered your icons (or gave them short names) and then wrote see info page as your keyword, then listed them by number (or name) in your info, then you could get all the crediting in that you wanted to. If you wanted to be a huge purist, you should just go ask the artist if they mind you making icons from their work in the first place, before you even do it. ;) Not crediting the original source isn't a huge crime in my eyes. I just think it's a huge hypocritical one if you don't credit them while expecting to get credit yourself. ^_^ (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: I dunno, man karmakaze 2003-11-18 03:43 pm UTC (link)
	Honestly, I have a lot more sympathy for people who's fanart has been used as an icon, in that situation. The things is, most icons are made from known artists, or from screencaps and publicity stills, in which case the origin is obvious. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I dunno, man quinctia 2003-11-18 05:05 pm UTC (link)
	most icons are made from known artists Except in anime and game fandoms, where a lot of art is stolen from people in Japan. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I dunno, man maryavatar 2003-11-18 02:29 pm UTC (link)

Right now, the lj-userpic culture expects crediting as the default. When did this happen? I've had an LJ for almost two years, and I've been making and giving away icons for almost that long. I've also been given a lot of icons, and I hadn't heard the 'you must credit the creator or be lablelled a thief' law until I got a GJ a couple of months ago. I admit, I don't really circulate in icon-making circles on LJ that often, so I could be wrong. I just think it was incredibly rude for someone on a GJ community to accuse me of icon theft simply because I didn't credit myself in my keywords. Also, there is nothing in the TOS that says icons must be credited. There is a small wanky clique who go around claiming they have The Rules for icon use, and I intend to mock them until my eyes bleed. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I dunno, man karmakaze 2003-11-18 03:13 pm UTC (link)

In the icon communities, pretty much every post is labeled "please credit in keywords" or "I don't need credit, but please tell me if you take" or in some way mention crediting. This is not to say that the people who have appointed themselves the icon police are not incredibly wanky. And no, crediting has nothing to do with the TOS. Anyone who claims it does is silly at best. The anti-icon police folks I run into most often, though, are people who don't make their own icons, and feel the need to hang out on the icon boards and troll with "It's just an icon, and it's not yours anyway and you can't do anything about it, nyah nyah nyah". They're usually pretty wanky on their own. I find this whole 'war' wanky on both sides. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I dunno, man maryavatar 2003-11-18 03:40 pm UTC (link)
	I find this whole 'war' wanky on both sides. Can't argue with you there. I freely admit I was rubbing my genitals all over it. And it felt gooooood. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	meril 2003-11-17 10:54 pm UTC (link)
	I joined up. I've been running a free-use, no-credit icon site for the past year and I thought I was the only one who wasn't a complete control freak over icons. I don't get those people, especially the cut-and-paste kind of icon maker (as that's pretty much what I am.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: quinctia 2003-11-18 12:07 am UTC (link)
	Hehe...I make a lot of icons completely from scratch, and I'm still not a control freak! ^^; (Reply to this)(Parent)

	No, lots of people are laid back karmakaze 2003-11-18 03:15 pm UTC (link)
	I don't freak, either. I enjoy being told because I can say "Wheee! Somebody liked my thirty seconds of effort!" but I don't think I've ever complained about a lack of credit, or even checked. I have so many better things to do with my time and energy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: No, lots of people are laid back quinctia 2003-11-18 05:28 pm UTC (link)
	The main problem is that now these communities are taking it upon themselves to check and do the harrassment for you, when it's none of their damn business. ^^ (Reply to this)(Parent)