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Herongale (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} herongale) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} otf_wank,@ 2006-01-11 02:05:00 |
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Hypersensitive Americans or Boorish Brits? You decide!
For those of you not "in the know," Lush is to bath and beauty products what BPAL is to fragrances. In fact, there is a lot of crossover appeal and you'll often see Lush products up for swap on the BPAL forums, and vice versa. Despite this, it's important to note that Lush is a much more vast enterprise... they've got stores in a bazillion countries and offer a far more professional level of customer service. Despite this, the founders and owners of Lush (Mark Constantine and Hilary, primarily) like to keep relationships with customers cozy, and are regular and outspoken participants in their own company's forums.
This current wank apparently has a ton of backstory, but as I'm relatively new to Lush I can only comment on what is currently going down. Some time ago, Constantine (heretofor referred to as BIG, according to his preferred internet handle) had an image in his sig line of an Native American indian in stereotypical guise, and this offended some of the participants in the North American forum. That issue was apparently never resolved to the satisfaction of all, because on page 26 of a meet-and-greet Q&A style exchange between BIG and the North American (NA) forumites, as the conversation was winding down and BIG was saying his goodbyes, her replied to a question about his looks with the following:
I do look like my sig. No one asked about the one that got me into trouble.
(forgive me: I will not be reproducing smilies in this report, but there was an emo :( at the end of that one)
Well, if BIG thought he had dodged a bullet, he was sorely mistaken (scroll down about 1/3 for post by Lushalicious; forum links are unfortunately a bit imprecise):
Are you f'ing kidding me?
Do you really want to go there?
I'm still pissed 8 months later and still waiting for an apology - and I emailed you several times. It is only because of Hilary that I still buy lush at all
Cue wank. (lj-cut for sheer tl:dr factor)
Soon after, AlaskaSnows chimes in to concur:
Yes, me too. This issue has never been resolved, nor was the intense HATRED thrown at US Native Americans who decided not to take the issue lying down. BTW, we have incredibly senses of humor. It just isn't a FUNNY sigpic.
Big replies with what sounds like, to many, to be a half-assed apology
Heres my excuse. I have a friend, a dutch guy called Rene. I made him a CD and popped a picture of Austen Powers on the cover because he looks a bit like him. He made me a CD and he chose a track by Leon Redbone called Desert Blues, and he put that picture on the cover. I didnt know who it was but thought it was fun and chose it as my sig. Then as Hilary put it I had a health scare and was out of action for quite a while. When I was feeling better all this fuss had happened and the sig had been changed. So didnt mean to cause anyone offence. Now must rush, dinners going cold. xxxx If you need me FAO me on the other forum .Byeeeeee
People were not buying it (maybe because of the "Byeeeeee" at the end?):
Lushalicious: And it wasn't just the sig - you were posting in threads "talking" in a cowboy western indian stereotype "indian english" "Big say, me no likey...whatevery" It was completely racist stereotypes. If you think this is something that I or any of the other native americans on this forum will forget you are sadly mistaken. All I wanted was an apology or email saying you were sorry. That's it. Posting like this on the forum is a complete half ass measure. Yeah, I'm pissed.
Lushalicious is also so kind as to reproduce her original email to Big,back from the legendary far-reaches of time from eight months prior:
Dear Mr. Constantine -
Several weeks ago I started an FAO regarding the perpetuation of Native
American stereotypes by official Representatives of the Lush family
(yourself included) on the UK forum. After the FAO degenerated into an
international shouting match by parties unrelated to the issue I e-mailed
Hilary in an attempt to bring clarity to the original issue. I appreciate
that your signature picture was removed and Tittywalls removed the
"Indian" chant from her signature however I have yet to receive an
official word or apology in the matter. I became a target of a great deal
of hate filled posts as a result of my FAO. One industrious person even
went so far as find out my private e-mail and continue the abuse in
private.
Racial stereotypes and prejudice are something I deal with on a daily
basis and is not something that I will tolerate as a customer. I
understand that you have been busy over the last few weeks with the Lush
anniversary and Covent Garden opening but this is an issue I still feel
needs to be addressed. I was not the only injured party in this affair.
There are a number of other Native Americans who regularly post on the NA
and UK forums who were also attacked and harassed when they too voiced
their feelings with regards to your signature picture. Ignoring the issue
will not make it go away. As a loyal Lush customer of the past four years
I hope to hear from you on this matter.
Yours Sincerely,
(aka Lushalishous)
Athena8827 suggests an apology:
Big - there may be a bit of a language barrier. What you said may be considered an apology in the UK, but these ladies would like to hear you say
"I am sorry, I did not understand this would hurt you so. I understand now and it will not happen again."
…Which the intrepid BIG cuts and pastes into his follow up apology post:
OKey dokey sorry about having to rush off but frightening as you lot can be, leaving Mo's dinner on the table to get cold is more frightening.
Lets talk about some of the other bits.
Merging the forums. I still think this is sensible and it may happen. From my point of view we are here to serve you as customers, not argue with you, or act as referees in arguements.
My comment was "go to the mall" a direct quote from High Fidelity, my fave best time film, and was a poor attempt at humour.
I appreciate your custom and really appreciate the feedback and passion that is vioced in these threads. As time goes by things will change and we will get things right and things wrong. I will no doubt say things that create a fuss and everyone will get hot under the collar. What I like though is that all of these things can be spoken about freely and that we can apologise, learn and accept different points of view.
I love the swaps the international competition to provide quality and value.
You guys tend to frighten some of our people who have just taken a job and find they have to answer to the most informed and vociferous clients they have ever met. So bear that in mind and try to be kind.
With me you can be as straightforward as you wish. However I am sadly very human as are the rest of the team. We cant be on all forums nor can we do everything we are asked.
Anyway thats my five eggs. Thanks again for caring so much. It is inspiring.
PS "I am sorry, I did not understand this would hurt you so. I understand now and it will not happen again." with love and best wishes.
(I'm really sorry you don't get the full benefit of the line of clapping smilies after the word "inspiring").
Anyway, AlaskaSnows fires back as follows:
Sigh.
Big you may be here only as a service but when you IGNORE a problem and do not address it the people who idolize you see that as free reign to act like outright assholes, and they think they are right, because you say nothing.
They act like jerks because they idolize a soap company owner. They RACIALLY INSULTED and told people to screw off over valid, real and deeply meaningful racial issues because it was more important they deify you than act like human beings.
So when you ignored the issue, they sat back and brushed dust off their hands and said Well! We saved Big, we did, from those rude self absorbed NA forumites!
Ad they still think that, and they STILL allude to the matter and OUR bad behavior for daring to be insulted by RACIAL INSULTS.
This all looks like it's going to descend into really nasty territory, but BIG is a businessman, and (I suspect) at heart quite gracious: despite his apparent inability to type without smily support, he really does step up to the plate and makes a sincere-seeming apology which is coupled by an extremely generous invitation to both Lushalicious and AlaskaSnows to fly to the UK on his dime for an upcoming factory tour, where they can meet with BIG personally as well as have fun hanging out with other Lush addicts. The two girls are astonished at this offer and accept immediately, and most everyone follows up to congratulate them on their good fortune and their chance to talk things out and hopefully settle this issue.
It's basically a storybook ending, right?
Wrong.
Over in the International Forum, the entire exchange had been observed.
And mocked.
Now, the International Forum requires membership to view posts, and the post I'm linking to is locked and in "jail" and therefore going to be deleted soon. I really, really don't like reposting locked materials, so I'm going to kind of wimp out at this point and not give you all the details (which are at times rather wanky). It doesn't take much to join the forum to look at the post, but it's going to be deleted automatically in seven days, so go look while the looking is good. I guarantee it's worthwhile.
ETA: the direct link apparently doesn't work even if you log in. But this post is still viewable in the Jail SubForum under the topic header "oh dear."
(note: even though I did this writeup with Lush as a "fandom," I really think this belongs more in otf_wank and thus the posting here)
For those of you not "in the know," Lush is to bath and beauty products what BPAL is to fragrances. In fact, there is a lot of crossover appeal and you'll often see Lush products up for swap on the BPAL forums, and vice versa. Despite this, it's important to note that Lush is a much more vast enterprise... they've got stores in a bazillion countries and offer a far more professional level of customer service. Despite this, the founders and owners of Lush (Mark Constantine and Hilary, primarily) like to keep relationships with customers cozy, and are regular and outspoken participants in their own company's forums.
This current wank apparently has a ton of backstory, but as I'm relatively new to Lush I can only comment on what is currently going down. Some time ago, Constantine (heretofor referred to as BIG, according to his preferred internet handle) had an image in his sig line of an Native American indian in stereotypical guise, and this offended some of the participants in the North American forum. That issue was apparently never resolved to the satisfaction of all, because on page 26 of a meet-and-greet Q&A style exchange between BIG and the North American (NA) forumites, as the conversation was winding down and BIG was saying his goodbyes, her replied to a question about his looks with the following:
I do look like my sig. No one asked about the one that got me into trouble.
(forgive me: I will not be reproducing smilies in this report, but there was an emo :( at the end of that one)
Well, if BIG thought he had dodged a bullet, he was sorely mistaken (scroll down about 1/3 for post by Lushalicious; forum links are unfortunately a bit imprecise):
Are you f'ing kidding me?
Do you really want to go there?
I'm still pissed 8 months later and still waiting for an apology - and I emailed you several times. It is only because of Hilary that I still buy lush at all
Cue wank. (lj-cut for sheer tl:dr factor)
Soon after, AlaskaSnows chimes in to concur:
Yes, me too. This issue has never been resolved, nor was the intense HATRED thrown at US Native Americans who decided not to take the issue lying down. BTW, we have incredibly senses of humor. It just isn't a FUNNY sigpic.
Big replies with what sounds like, to many, to be a half-assed apology
Heres my excuse. I have a friend, a dutch guy called Rene. I made him a CD and popped a picture of Austen Powers on the cover because he looks a bit like him. He made me a CD and he chose a track by Leon Redbone called Desert Blues, and he put that picture on the cover. I didnt know who it was but thought it was fun and chose it as my sig. Then as Hilary put it I had a health scare and was out of action for quite a while. When I was feeling better all this fuss had happened and the sig had been changed. So didnt mean to cause anyone offence. Now must rush, dinners going cold. xxxx If you need me FAO me on the other forum .Byeeeeee
People were not buying it (maybe because of the "Byeeeeee" at the end?):
Lushalicious: And it wasn't just the sig - you were posting in threads "talking" in a cowboy western indian stereotype "indian english" "Big say, me no likey...whatevery" It was completely racist stereotypes. If you think this is something that I or any of the other native americans on this forum will forget you are sadly mistaken. All I wanted was an apology or email saying you were sorry. That's it. Posting like this on the forum is a complete half ass measure. Yeah, I'm pissed.
Lushalicious is also so kind as to reproduce her original email to Big,
Dear Mr. Constantine -
Several weeks ago I started an FAO regarding the perpetuation of Native
American stereotypes by official Representatives of the Lush family
(yourself included) on the UK forum. After the FAO degenerated into an
international shouting match by parties unrelated to the issue I e-mailed
Hilary in an attempt to bring clarity to the original issue. I appreciate
that your signature picture was removed and Tittywalls removed the
"Indian" chant from her signature however I have yet to receive an
official word or apology in the matter. I became a target of a great deal
of hate filled posts as a result of my FAO. One industrious person even
went so far as find out my private e-mail and continue the abuse in
private.
Racial stereotypes and prejudice are something I deal with on a daily
basis and is not something that I will tolerate as a customer. I
understand that you have been busy over the last few weeks with the Lush
anniversary and Covent Garden opening but this is an issue I still feel
needs to be addressed. I was not the only injured party in this affair.
There are a number of other Native Americans who regularly post on the NA
and UK forums who were also attacked and harassed when they too voiced
their feelings with regards to your signature picture. Ignoring the issue
will not make it go away. As a loyal Lush customer of the past four years
I hope to hear from you on this matter.
Yours Sincerely,
(aka Lushalishous)
Athena8827 suggests an apology:
Big - there may be a bit of a language barrier. What you said may be considered an apology in the UK, but these ladies would like to hear you say
"I am sorry, I did not understand this would hurt you so. I understand now and it will not happen again."
…Which the intrepid BIG cuts and pastes into his follow up apology post:
OKey dokey sorry about having to rush off but frightening as you lot can be, leaving Mo's dinner on the table to get cold is more frightening.
Lets talk about some of the other bits.
Merging the forums. I still think this is sensible and it may happen. From my point of view we are here to serve you as customers, not argue with you, or act as referees in arguements.
My comment was "go to the mall" a direct quote from High Fidelity, my fave best time film, and was a poor attempt at humour.
I appreciate your custom and really appreciate the feedback and passion that is vioced in these threads. As time goes by things will change and we will get things right and things wrong. I will no doubt say things that create a fuss and everyone will get hot under the collar. What I like though is that all of these things can be spoken about freely and that we can apologise, learn and accept different points of view.
I love the swaps the international competition to provide quality and value.
You guys tend to frighten some of our people who have just taken a job and find they have to answer to the most informed and vociferous clients they have ever met. So bear that in mind and try to be kind.
With me you can be as straightforward as you wish. However I am sadly very human as are the rest of the team. We cant be on all forums nor can we do everything we are asked.
Anyway thats my five eggs. Thanks again for caring so much. It is inspiring.
PS "I am sorry, I did not understand this would hurt you so. I understand now and it will not happen again." with love and best wishes.
(I'm really sorry you don't get the full benefit of the line of clapping smilies after the word "inspiring").
Anyway, AlaskaSnows fires back as follows:
Sigh.
Big you may be here only as a service but when you IGNORE a problem and do not address it the people who idolize you see that as free reign to act like outright assholes, and they think they are right, because you say nothing.
They act like jerks because they idolize a soap company owner. They RACIALLY INSULTED and told people to screw off over valid, real and deeply meaningful racial issues because it was more important they deify you than act like human beings.
So when you ignored the issue, they sat back and brushed dust off their hands and said Well! We saved Big, we did, from those rude self absorbed NA forumites!
Ad they still think that, and they STILL allude to the matter and OUR bad behavior for daring to be insulted by RACIAL INSULTS.
This all looks like it's going to descend into really nasty territory, but BIG is a businessman, and (I suspect) at heart quite gracious: despite his apparent inability to type without smily support, he really does step up to the plate and makes a sincere-seeming apology which is coupled by an extremely generous invitation to both Lushalicious and AlaskaSnows to fly to the UK on his dime for an upcoming factory tour, where they can meet with BIG personally as well as have fun hanging out with other Lush addicts. The two girls are astonished at this offer and accept immediately, and most everyone follows up to congratulate them on their good fortune and their chance to talk things out and hopefully settle this issue.
It's basically a storybook ending, right?
Wrong.
Over in the International Forum, the entire exchange had been observed.
And mocked.
Now, the International Forum requires membership to view posts, and the post I'm linking to is locked and in "jail" and therefore going to be deleted soon. I really, really don't like reposting locked materials, so I'm going to kind of wimp out at this point and not give you all the details (which are at times rather wanky). It doesn't take much to join the forum to look at the post, but it's going to be deleted automatically in seven days, so go look while the looking is good. I guarantee it's worthwhile.
ETA: the direct link apparently doesn't work even if you log in. But this post is still viewable in the Jail SubForum under the topic header "oh dear."
(note: even though I did this writeup with Lush as a "fandom," I really think this belongs more in otf_wank and thus the posting here)
