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	esclaramonde 2006-01-17 11:45 pm UTC (link)
	GAFF wank really is the best, mostly because everyone there is very unself-conscious about saying what they really think. (Reply to this)

	mouseykins 2006-01-17 11:46 pm UTC (link)
	I did not call this wench a whore because she got pregnant or had sex out of wedlock. I called her a whore because,that's exactly what she is. A lying, murdering,woe-is-me,whore. You know there's something wrong when a person uses a SLANG incorrectly. I mean, okay, you miss a word, but a slang term? They must be a cunt. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	wankprophet 2006-01-18 12:13 am UTC (link)
	Getting slang right is hard sometimes. Don't be such a judgemental lollygagger. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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mouseykins, 2006-01-18 12:16 am UTC

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wankprophet, 2006-01-18 12:20 am UTC

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puipui, 2006-01-18 12:25 am UTC

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puipui, 2006-01-18 01:59 am UTC

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innsmouth_eyes, 2006-01-18 03:20 am UTC

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pokecheck, 2006-01-18 03:55 am UTC

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puipui, 2006-01-18 04:59 am UTC

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ladyofviolets, 2006-01-18 08:34 pm UTC

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pipssister, 2006-01-18 05:04 am UTC

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innsmouth_eyes, 2006-01-18 05:15 am UTC

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pipssister, 2006-01-18 04:31 pm UTC

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innsmouth_eyes, 2006-01-18 11:23 pm UTC

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pipssister, 2006-01-19 01:27 am UTC

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innsmouth_eyes, 2006-01-19 10:12 am UTC

	miss_padfoot 2006-01-17 11:58 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not really seeing much wank here... just normal GAFF-style disagreement. Maybe normal GAFF-style disagreement is wank and I've just been on flame-warrish forums too long. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	esclaramonde 2006-01-18 12:27 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, kind of, because people there are not worried about things like politeness and being nice or anything. If it keeps going on, then it is truly wank. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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miss_padfoot, 2006-01-18 12:44 am UTC

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esclaramonde, 2006-01-18 01:10 am UTC

	kadath 2006-01-18 12:08 am UTC (link)
	Misogyny: fun for the whole family. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	doroc_sabah 2006-01-18 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	Except the women? (Reply to this)(Parent)

mael
2006-01-18 12:16 am UTC (link)

The OP is a moron, no doubt about that.

But I find myself gnashing my teeth regardless. This woman killed a child. She killed her child. Why am I blaming her? Because she chucked her child in the trash, listened to him cry, and left his to die.

No, we don't know if her boyfriend beat her. Considering her legal situation it seems likely that she would have made that clear to her lawyers, if she had at the time of the birth feared for her life. No amount of "don't judge her!" is going to stop me from doing just that. While society does influence us all there is such a thing as personal responsibility. And she decided, not impulsively but repeatedly, to not save her child and leave him to die.

Possibly, that makes me a "bad" feminist. Frankly, I don't care.

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	wankprophet 2006-01-18 12:23 am UTC (link)
	Frankly, I don't care That's okay, because, thanks to you sharing all this with us, we do. No, really. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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mael, 2006-01-18 12:24 am UTC

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wankprophet, 2006-01-18 12:48 am UTC

ari_
2006-01-18 01:58 am UTC (link)

I dunno about the US, but in Austria (and probably also in Germany, since our laws are generally very close) we have a law specially for mothers who kill their child either during or shortly after birth, giving a lower sentence, because of the special mental state that goes together with giving birth.

Normally, the penalty for ...*blanks on official term* er, planned murder is 10 - 20 years or life, but in that particular case, it's 1 to 5 years.

(we had a - well, not quite similar but still - case here in Austria this summer, where it was discovered that a woman had given birth 4 times and each time had killed the child after birth and hidden it somewhere on her property. It was discovered because two of them she had put deeply in a freezer, and someone who was living at her property found them. She was in utter denial, so much so that she doesn't even remember ever having given birth. I don't remember if she was judged competent to stand trial, because I didn't really follow all of it, but there were a number of articles about the fact that women can be in a very hard to understand mental state after giving birth. Incidentially, the boyfriend in this case never noticed her pregnancies, either, nor did any of the people at her workplace, her friends or neighbors)

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carlanime, 2006-01-18 02:11 am UTC

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ari_, 2006-01-18 02:23 am UTC

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carlanime, 2006-01-18 02:49 am UTC

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pokecheck, 2006-01-18 03:55 am UTC

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ari_, 2006-01-18 01:43 pm UTC

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issendai, 2006-01-18 10:38 pm UTC

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edana_ni_emer, 2006-01-23 11:31 pm UTC

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issendai, 2006-01-24 12:12 am UTC

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ladyofviolets, 2006-01-18 08:32 pm UTC

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tao_tao, 2006-01-18 09:22 pm UTC

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belafarinrod, 2006-01-18 11:34 pm UTC

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honorh, 2006-01-19 06:11 pm UTC

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chibikaijuu, 2006-01-20 12:44 am UTC

	sepiamagpie 2006-01-18 12:32 am UTC (link)
	Well, now I'm depressed. (Reply to this)

	aerobot 2006-01-18 01:24 am UTC (link)
	I salute Nimbrethil for not falling into the mindless condemnation and thinking maybe, just maybe, there might be other factors at work here. I mean, damn, if a woman is willing to let a baby die because she's so scared on what her boyfriend might think, that sets off little alarms in my head. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	ecchaniz0r 2006-01-18 01:33 am UTC (link)
	Yeah. This is clearly a world of uptgefuckery. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	annabelle_lee 2006-01-18 07:11 am UTC (link)
	Y'know, I would've been willing to give her the benefit of the doubt about that if it wasn't for the fact that she could've brought the baby into a hospital and walked away, no questions asked. Or was she too afraid to even do that? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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aerobot, 2006-01-19 01:06 pm UTC

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annabelle_lee, 2006-01-19 08:30 pm UTC

randomsome1
2006-01-18 07:22 am UTC (link)

I'll poke a hole in Nimbrethil's logic, though:

I'm assuming you've never been in the position of having a domineering boyfriend who gives you substantial reason to fear for your life if you piss him off in *any* way, especially in some way that he perceives as a slight to his masculinity.

Yeah, he's in such a bind over his masculinity that he went out to get her pads/tampons by himself.

And really, all we have is what the woman said, which means next to squat if she's unstable enough to toss the kid out in the trash. People having psychotic breaks aren't necessarily logical, either with their actions or with where they toss blame.

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aerobot, 2006-01-19 01:08 pm UTC

	karina 2006-01-18 08:04 pm UTC (link)
	It's also possible that the woman in question was afraid that her BF might leave her if he discovered she was pregnant. An asshole-y thing to do, but not criminal. If there was some sort of abuse, wouldn't her lawyer offer that up to lessen her sentence? Also, she copped to a plea, so she's the guilty party here. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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aerobot, 2006-01-19 01:07 pm UTC

	nicolae 2006-01-18 01:47 am UTC (link)
	Throwing babies away is bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean you exchange sexual favors for money. Whore =/= bad person. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	tao_tao 2006-01-18 09:25 pm UTC (link)
	But whore is used as a generic insult, just as cunt and bitch. It just is. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	threegoldfish 2006-01-18 05:17 am UTC (link)
	Wasn't this just on L&O tonight? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	the_wanlorn 2006-01-18 06:13 am UTC (link)
	nod I was creeped out. Because I'd just come from reading this. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	darthmaligna 2006-01-18 07:28 am UTC (link)
	It certainly was. I felt kind of bad when I read this and my first thought was, "Oh, hell, where is Richard Belzer when you need him?" (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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phosfate, 2006-01-18 04:12 pm UTC

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smo, 2006-01-18 06:52 pm UTC

	ladyrogue 2006-01-18 12:59 pm UTC (link)
	Dammit, I knew there was something else I forgot! laments currently crappily arranged dorm so tv isn't plugged (Reply to this)(Parent)

	smo 2006-01-18 04:41 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, except the girl got rid of the kid because of a reason which will make me never look at Zeljko Ivanek the same way again. o_O (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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doroc_sabah, 2006-01-18 06:32 pm UTC

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smo, 2006-01-18 06:36 pm UTC

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doroc_sabah, 2006-01-18 06:37 pm UTC

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smo, 2006-01-18 06:51 pm UTC

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chibikaijuu, 2006-01-19 01:30 am UTC

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smo, 2006-01-19 03:40 pm UTC

starkers
2006-01-18 05:37 am UTC (link)

:/ I'm torn here. On the one hand, it really does seem like there is something hella wrong with this woman and/or her relationship. From her statements it appears that she was seriously terrified of what her boyfriend would do to her if he found out about her pregnancy.

On the other hand... she killed a baby. Thought about it, took it out to the trash, watched it move, listened to it cry, and let it die anyway. Then lied to cover it up. It doesn't seem like she's raging insane or anything if she thought that all out.

But then, perhaps tonights episode of Law & Order: SVU has colored my thinking. WAS HER FATHER INVOLVED?!?!?

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	rachelthedemon 2006-01-18 08:09 am UTC (link)
	I don't care what her boyfriend would've done to her. She could've left the baby at any fire station, hospital, or police station to be taken care of and walked away, no questions asked and he would've never found out. Instead, she tossed the baby out like a piece of trash to die. The court should throw the fucking book at her. (Reply to this)(Thread)