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	plazmah 2006-01-26 12:51 am UTC (link)
	FWIW, my world became a much better place once I discovered CSS. Tables can go screw themselves. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	brown_betty 2006-01-26 12:54 am UTC (link)
	Word. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	reeve 2006-01-26 02:57 am UTC (link)
	Double word. I recently made my first CSS-based, tables-free template for a site redesign, and it's so purty. Still have much to learn, though... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	moonjaguar 2006-01-27 04:53 am UTC (link)
	I'm not real grasping of CSS myself right now, still trying to break the table habit. Seriously though, I just lurve the fact that I can have font colors, font faces, background colors, and how I want my paragraphs aligned all on one neat little stylesheet and link to it from as many pages as I need. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Ahh, stylesheets... reeve 2006-01-27 03:05 pm UTC (link)
	Not entirely over tables myself, as CSS has its own browser compatibility issues casts sidelong glance at Internet Explorer, and again, I still have a lot to learn. But yes, I love that I don't necessarily have to use the font tag ever again :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	felinephoenix 2006-01-26 06:32 am UTC (link)
	=( But I like tables. They were the first bit of HTML that I really "got". (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	annabelle_lee 2006-01-26 08:13 am UTC (link)
	Same here, plus td and tr are so easy to remember. ;_; (reposted because I put in the tags and WHOA FUCK.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	plazmah 2006-01-27 05:08 am UTC (link)
	No doubt that they were easy to understand. But they were tiresome to create, and CSS is just... prettier :P (Reply to this)(Parent)

	monkeywrench 2006-01-28 02:20 pm UTC (link)
	Can your tables change your sofuckingboringYAWN default cursor into fabulous CROSSHAIR, huh? Huh? HUH? (Kidding, I hate it when people change their pages' cursors. I do <3 CSS, though.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kookaburra 2006-01-26 07:55 am UTC (link)
	YES. We're currently in the process of changing my college's website over to css from JavaScript and tables, and it's going to be soooooo nice when it's done. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dracothelizard 2006-01-26 01:37 pm UTC (link)
	I KNOW! I took over webmastering a website from a guy who didn't use css at all. Tables were everywhere and oh my god the attributes in the font were overwhelming. CSS is bliss. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mindset 2006-01-26 02:27 am UTC (link)
	On the business site I work on, I use a mix of CSS and tables and iframes (the devil, yes). I'd go to pure divs & CSS if I could, but the AJAX-y interface was not a happy camper when I tried it out. (And IE and innerHTML are teh suck.) As it is, it does adjust to different layouts, works fairly well in both IE and Firefox/Mozilla, impresses the clients, and keeps my boss happy. :) (Reply to this)

	photosinensis 2006-01-26 07:21 am UTC (link)
	CSS=good. IE=evil dark magic. Microsoft=just plain evil. (Reply to this)

WEB STANDARDS DISCUSSION DEVOLVES INTO WANK - FILM AT 11

littlemisspiss
2006-01-26 07:48 am UTC (link)

Anyone have any web design stories?

Oh honey.

srsly. I love proper design and standards and such, and when I'm allowed to do as I wish I make them pretty much as tight as can be. But hello, real world? The temp newb at work just wrote like a thirty page treatise on everything that's wrong with one of our sites (we have about a dozen), beginning with how it's ebil that we're not serving our XHTML as application/xhtml+xml because like omg the browsers don't go into compliance mode and treat it the same as HTML and...

Are your eyes glazing over yet? Exactly. But I know what he's on about, so I annotate his report with comments such as 'we can't do this for reasons x y and z,' and 'we can't do that because this is a corporate environment and we can't alter the server configuration to permit a b and c,' and rah rah rah.

SO THEN he bitches on his blog? And sends me this pissmail at work going 'it's ok I understand I'll just A-SHUT UP NOW victimvictim.'

Before he leaves I will be making him a button with the Internet Serious Business guy.

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	Re: WEB STANDARDS DISCUSSION DEVOLVES INTO WANK - FILM AT 11 antigone 2006-01-26 10:06 pm UTC (link)
	You found his blog bitching about you??? That's ten kinds of awesome. ^^ I can wait until the Real World slaps the kid around a bit. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: WEB STANDARDS DISCUSSION DEVOLVES INTO WANK - FILM AT 11

mcity
2006-01-27 01:36 am UTC (link)

SO THEN he bitches on his blog?

Seventh commandament much?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: WEB STANDARDS DISCUSSION DEVOLVES INTO WANK - FILM AT 11 ladybirdsleeps 2006-01-27 11:22 pm UTC (link)
	YOU DID IT AGAIN. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sheep 2006-01-26 03:26 pm UTC (link)
	CSS? (Reply to this)(Thread)

qem_chibati
2006-01-26 06:54 pm UTC (link)

Cascading Style Sheets

If you want to see what its capable of....

Cascading Style Sheets

http://www.csszengarden.com/

Exactly the same html page, but clicking those links will change the css - a seperate text file with instructions on what the page is suppose to make the attributes look like.

CSS is good because it places emphasise on meaning, which means better for text based browsers to interpret - easier if you want to change the look of the website...

Pretty. Pretty. Pretty.

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	sheep 2006-01-26 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	Pretty indeed! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	marsdragon 2006-01-26 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	Ooh. That was /nifty/. I didn't know that CSS was that cool before. Thanks! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mcity 2006-01-27 01:39 am UTC (link)
	You will find, young padawan, as I did once, that CSS is unto a river; at first glance it seems simple, but closer examination will reveal that it has twists and turns, of endless subtlety. Learn to harness this power, and all will fall before you. (Reply to this)(Parent)

jadelennox
2006-01-26 04:43 pm UTC (link)

Here's my usual wank on this one:

Me: "We should code this site with CSS whenever possible and conform to accessibility standards."

The Powers What Be and Other Coders: "That's nice, dear, but this is good enough for the people actually use the site, and you can maintain it easily in Dreamweaver even if you don't understand Web coding at all, and it's pretty!"

Me: "Excuse me? I use the site more than any of our users, and I use a screenreader, and I can't navigate the site you worthless godforsaken lunatics!"

TPWBaOC: "There, there. This is good enough, and accessible, too!"

Me: *froths at mouth and contemplates kicking them in soft places*

Er. Was that my wanking voice? Sorry.

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	mcity 2006-01-26 08:24 pm UTC (link)
	Dreamweaver? I'm taking a class on Office, and as part of our term assignment, we have to write a page in Frontpage. The example the book used even had, no kidding, a cloud pattern in the background. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

qem_chibati
2006-01-26 08:53 pm UTC (link)

A lot of companies have official policies that you /have/ to use Frontpage even if your familiar with HTML, or whatever, since that way your gareenteed certain standards.

But I think

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A lot of companies have official policies that you /have/ to use Frontpage even if your familiar with HTML, or whatever, since that way your gareenteed certain standards.

But I think <lj-user="jadelennox"> has a much better idea. CSS makes life so much better when you use it well, imosho.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

mcity
2006-01-27 01:18 am UTC (link)

A lot of companies have official policies that you /have/ to use Frontpage even if your familiar with HTML, or whatever, since that way your gareenteed certain standards.

Heaven forbid we should actually code correctly.

And I forgot; it wasn't FP we did those pages in. It was Word.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jadelennox 2006-01-27 03:48 pm UTC (link)
	And I forgot; it wasn't FP we did those pages in. It was Word. covers eyes covers ears I can't heeeaaar you. In my world, that did not happen; nobody made you do that. Also, Wonderfalls was never cancelled and Obama is president. (Reply to this)(Parent)

afuna
2006-01-28 02:38 am UTC (link)

And I forgot; it wasn't FP we did those pages in. It was Word.
*whimper*

The last webpage I saw written in Word was bloated to 1.5Mb from all the p xmlns whatever things that Word inserted. It was literally all text -- there were one or two images, but the images were broken so they didn't contribute to the size.

It was in outline form but used p tags with inline formatting instead of lis; caused my computer to stutter and stumble from the bloat when I tried to view source; was in a weird encoding that changed "'" to "í", "—" to "randomweirdcharacters", and inserted random characters into whitespace; and it had no links even when there were plenty of logical places to split the document (though that is more the document writer's fault than Word's).

Copying and pasting it into a plain text editor to remove all the formatting bloat reduced the size to a mere 200kb. Even if you used insanely long classnames and went crazy with the markup you'd probably only reach 400kb -- 500kb at the very most.

As far as I am concerned, the "Save as Web Page" function of Word is evil incarnate.

(I wanted to fix that site so badly. :'( emo tear)

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mastervex
2006-01-31 11:10 pm UTC (link)

Stupidass random rambling about semi-related personal stories ahead:
I did a presentation on CSS and and web standards and such sometime in high school, because I knew I only had to do a tiny amount of research, I could just talk about the most basic stuff and it would still have everyone's eyes glazing over not knowing what the hell I was going on about, and the teacher would be impressed and give me an A because anything related to computers other than checking her email was super-technical magical amazing skill to her. It totally worked and I got to be lazy as hell. =D
Sadly, I remember absolutely nothing. Heck, I probably couldn't even make a halfassed webpage all full of tables and shit now. ;_;

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