Move from clairvoyantwank...
..when it hit two pages. So sue me, it's delicious. And we haven't seen GAFFwank for ages. And it's got textbook Godwin. Enough excuses.

From zero to Godwin in six posts!

I feel the need to blow off some steam over here so don't mind me. I'd love to hear your opinions of what I have to say, but mostly I'm just venting in a place I know a lot of people will see it. It may or may not have been said before… but… I dunno, it helps me to vent in public. Now, on with the rant.

It's typical pro-choice blowing-off-of-steam, complete with obligatory statement that the Bush administration is going to overthrow Roe V. Wade. I don't follow the whole abortion mess regularly because I get all angry and scream and hit things, so I don't know if Korde's rant is paranoid hyperbole or legitimate fear. But that's not the fun part! The fun part is when, sic posts down, Ermine shows up to represent her peeps in the pro-life movement, and amid the usual arguments we get this little jewel:

I honestly don't see the issue with abortion. Who could be opposed to life? Well, I suppose I can recall a certain group who promoted the mass elimination of "undesirables" whom they didn't consider worthy of human dignity: We call them Nazis. But what they did was wrong, right? This is different.

My question is: howcome no one ever mentions other historical genocides? It's always Nazis, Nazis, Nazis... c'mon, people, I know there's more than one of the things. How about givin' the conquistadors some lovin', know what I'm saying?

There's a little bit more about whether or not this appropriate use of Gabbery, but this fades out quickly in favor of HYPERBOLE!

These people think God speaks to them.

Therefore what they say is akin unto God's word.

Ergo, they are God.

God, I love GAFF.

Korde's rant:
I feel the need to blow off some steam over here so don't mind me. I'd love to hear your opinions of what I have to say, but mostly I'm just venting in a place I know a lot of people will see it. It may or may not have been said before… but… I dunno, it helps me to vent in public. Now, on with the rant.

As far as I’m aware it looks like abortion is going to become illegal in the US. I respect those with pro-life views and I don’t exactly consider myself pro-choice. I’m not pro-abortion, but I feel that the choice should be out there for those that are. Who has the right to tell someone what he or she can and cannot do with their own bodies once they reach adulthood? Who has the right to take a person’s right to chose away? Who are you (metaphorical “you” of course) to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body?

It doesn’t stop at abortion and it’s certainly not the beginning of this either. There are certain cities and even whole states in the US that have made getting a tattoo within the boundaries of that state or city illegal. You can have tattoos; you just can’t get them there. In many cities and states it is a little known fact that anal intercourse, and in some cases even oral sex, are illegal. Who has the right to tell me how I can and cannot have sex?

What’s next? Are you going to tell me that I can’t dye my hair? That, as a man, I’m not allowed to have long hair? Oh. I know. You’re going to tell all these gender dysphoric people that, no, you cannot have a sex-change operation. You were born a certain gender and you will stay that way never mind that it’s detrimental to your mental health to be trapped in a body whose physical gender does not match your emotional and mental gender. Or better yet, they’ll make being a gay or a lesbian completely illegal.

Who are we, as humans, to say what God thinks of us when the bible was written based almost solely on the views of general society at that time. Jesus basically came to Earth and said, “You know all that stuff you weren’t supposed to do before I came? Well, yeah… basically toss the entire lot of THAT rulebook out the window, with a few exceptions of course. Just sit back, relax, and accept your fellow neighbor for whomever they decide to be.”

I’m not a religious person obviously, so I’d like to state that, aren’t we supposed to be keeping God out of politics and the writing of new laws and such? And yet a lot of people scream about what God wants and what the Bible says when it comes to making decisions about things like abortion and gay marriages.

Are you God?

No?

Then how the hell do you know what he does or doesn’t want us doing?

Screw the Bible. Men who were free to twist God’s word however they pleased wrote the Bible. Show me a mandate written by God Himself and I’ll fall down on my knees, repent for my sins, and do as God says. Keep God in the Church where he belongs until then.

A friend of mine jokingly wondered when Bush was going to stage a coup and declare himself King. I’m beginning to think he’s actually going to try that. I’ve heard rumors of him trying to get the law stating that a person may only serve as President for two terms revoked. That scares me. I wonder what my country is coming to.

I’m worried about what this law making abortions illegal will do to our society. I’m worried that it’s not going to make kids any “smarter” about sex than they are now. I can see an increase in teen pregnancies that are carried to term, I can see an increase in the amount of children given up to foster care, and I can even see an increase in teen suicide. Girls are going to hurt themselves going to seedy doctors for illegal abortions and some of them might even decide to chance the ol’ wire hanger method.

I ask again. Who has the right to tell an individual what they can and cannot do with their own body?

Ermine's response (six congratulatory posts down):
Yes, but, you see, while having an abortion does affect the body of the mother, it also affects the other body-- that of the unborn child. And by "affects it", I mean, "makes it stop working". When your body stops working, you die. Therefore, an abortion results in a death. Of course, then comes the question of, "But can it be considered human?" Well, I don't know where the cut-off point of "meaningless blob of flesh"/"human being" supposedly comes in, but I do know that if my mother had chosen to "end her pregnancy", as it is euphamistically called, I would not be here. That wouldn't be very healthy for me.

The whole issue boils down to a little something called human dignity, and who deserves it. Who has human dignity? Do old people? Certainly. Do adults? Certainly. Do children? Certainly. Do little babies have dignity? Certainly. What about babies that haven't been born yet? Ah, that's where it gets tricky. You see, unborn babies aren't cute. They can't coo and gurgle and make adorable little baby faces at you. They can't cry out when they feel pain. However, I find it hard to believe that the moment a "fetus" (which is Latin for "little one" or "baby", by the by) is born, it suddenly and magically turns into a human. Poof! Insta-baby! I think not.

Don't get me wrong. I feel for mothers-to-be who find themselves in difficult situations where having a baby could be extremely detrimental. They could miss out on a valuable education, get kicked out of the house, be forsaken by their families, maybe even die. Having recently lost a close family member due to tragic and avoidable circumstances, I can understand the panic and hopelessness that would perhaps drive a woman to undergo an abortion procedure. However, that does not change the fact that an abortion results in the ending of an innocent human life, and that cannot be allowed. This isn't a religious issue by any stretch; this is a human rights issue. And when innocent lives are in danger, the government of a nation has not only the right but the obligation to intervene. An institution that tolerates or even promotes the destruction of the innocent is one that either needs to be changed or overthrown.

I honestly don't see the issue with abortion. Who could be opposed to life? Well, I suppose I can recall a certain group who promoted the mass elimination of "undesirables" whom they didn't consider worthy of human dignity: We call them Nazis. But what they did was wrong, right? This is different.

Saleha tries to head things off at the pass:
And we're off on the wanking train by evocation of Godwin!

How about you take the discussion somewhere else (as already mentioned above)? Not only is this not a place to rant randomly about any topic that gets your goat at this particular point in time; it has also been discussed numerous times in "Godawful News", it serves nothing but to instigate a major wank explosion, and I personally am tired of hearing both sides repeating the same arguments over and over again ad nauseum without ever being able to reach a consensus or convince anyone anyway because of the fundamental difference in thinking at work here ("Life begins at birth" vs. "Life begins at conception").

Ermine responds:
Huh? Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the Godwin reference, or how my reply has anything to do with a wanking train. I thought I was joining in serious debate.

Anyway, I didn't know that this subject has been gone over in GA News. I rarely, if ever, visit that section. I saw that someone had posted a rant with their views on several controversial subjects, and since there were several replies but no outcries of "This is the wrong place for this, shut up!", but only, "Amen, thank you"s, I thought it was appropriate to join in. Forgive me if I was mistaken. However, I find it strange coincidence that the only complaint came after I had posted a pro-life reply. Would it have come otherwise?

Salhe doesn't rise to the bait, and it could have ended there except Avari posts with an icon of a bloody coathanger, text: "What once was could be again" and calls Ermine a narrow-minded twit.

A whole bunch of other people chime in:

Seriously, a fetus is a parasite until it can exist outside the mother's womb on its own. I think it's somewhere around 4-5 months. Up until that point, I call it what is it: a parasite. It takes from the mother's system and gives nothing back, living off her blood and flesh. Yummy.

***

If I ever rule the world, I would sterilize people via Bio of a Space Tyrant and make people get parenting licenses, go through classes and everything. Like a four year class, maybe longer, and when they graduate, then the prospective parents would have to be reviewed, to make sure the are in a good stage of life, healthy, and with enough financial support to have children. THEN they could breed.

***

Korde, I personally don't care what your stance on abortion is. I am going to reiterate what others have said to you several times now: please post this sort of thing on LiveJournal.

***

I don't know where people get the idea that if Roe vs. Wade is struck down, abortion will immediately become illegal for the whole country. All it does is say that abortion is constitutionally-protected. If it falls, the issue goes to the states themselves.

***

Your argument is so totally void, now. If the only way you can make a point is by comparing unwed teenage mothers and rape victims to the kind of twisted killers that Nazis were, you have no place in a serious debate. If you have to compare a blob of cells that most likely does not even feel pain to a fully developed human being, with a family and friends, who could be starved, gassed, burned to death, or shot dead while their family watches, step down from your soapbox.

***

All this talk on abortion, and nobody's addressed one particular angle: the baby itself. Or, rather, the toddler, teenager, and adult member of society that the baby is going to be.

If a woman wanted to abort her baby but was unable, and she had to go through with the pregnancy, odds are she's going to resent both the child and her new role as mother. That leaves two options:

1. Raise the child herself. If the woman didn't want the child or was unprepared for having a baby, or both, there's a good chance that baby is going to grow up in an abusive situation.

2. Put the child up for adoption/ foster care. Unfortunately, these systems are horribly overloaded and in bad shape overall. The fact that some foster "parents" are only in it to get money from the goverment regardless of parental competence doesn't help matters. In the end, it's the same result: there's a significant risk of abuse.

So which is worse: legal abortion or increased child abuse?

***

Not to use an imperfect example that is a bit... disgusting? but... we do not give the same rights to animals as we do humans - you can slaughter farm animals & the like, & they actually do feel pain. You can hunt, & the animals possibly do feel fear. But because these animals do not experience human thoughts & have our comprehension level, we recognize that we have no moral obligation to treat them as humans. With respect & care, yes. But not as humans. Their lives are recognized as not as important. Why? Because when it comes to their brains, they, quite simply, do not have what we do.

I say this, as a vegetarian & animal rights activist.

Yet we're expected to give a bunch of cells that cannot feel pain/fear/emotions the same rights as the mother who carries those cells? We're expected to treat as human something that cannot yet, by our own laws, be recognized as human? I think not.

***

PEOPLE WILL GET ABORTIONS ANYWAY.

There's nothing you can do about it.

The only question is, will it be a back-alley hackjob, or performed by an actual doctor on a nice, sterile table.

***

Wank, wank, wank. People die every day. They die of cancer, they die in car crashes, they shoot each other. It's not like there's any shortage of babies OR adult human beings. A few babies here and there aren't any big deal.

***

This is what gets me about Pro-Lifers. They will do anything to save an unborn fetus, however detrimental its effect on the mother, even if she has to die for it to be born. Because the unborn baby's life is clearly far more important than its mother's, regardless of the fact that it may die anyway. Who cares if we end up killing the mother, becaues OMGZ teh kewt widdle baybeez!

***

You've inspired me -- oh, how you've inspired me! As soon as I pick up Flash, my first internet cartoon is going to be a bunch of blond pregnant women in SS uniforms doing jumping jacks and holding bloody coat-hangers. It's going to have a guy singing...

Nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi,
nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi,
nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi,
FETUS! FETUS!

...and naturally, it'll show a coat-hanger in... ahem, use... when he gets to FETUS! FETUS! After repeating this a few times, it'll go to some appropriately grisly footage from Dachau or Awshwitz as the guy sings...

JEEEEEW! JEEEEEW! OOOOOH, IT'S A JEW!

(And it's)
Nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi,
nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi,
nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi,
FETUS! FETUS!

And the best part is, when people start complaining about how I've trivialized the Nazi pogroms -- and you just KNOW they WILL complain! -- I can point at your post and say, "hey, at least I wasn't THIS extreme about it!"

***

Just because people will do something anyway doesn't mean we shouldn't make a law against it. People will commit murder even though it's against the law. They will commit rape, robbery, arson, and any number of other illegal things. There's nothing we can do about it.

That doesn't mean we just make it legal so it will be safer for them to do so.

*shakes hand* Owww... if someone knows a better way to archive the thread, for god's sake tell me.