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	redpanda 2003-08-23 10:17 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. I try not to judge, but...those people are just horrible beyond words. I wonder how many of them are young, and in ten years will completely hypocritically repent when their biological clocks go off...? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	darkrose 2003-08-23 10:51 pm UTC (link)
	shrugs Some of the terminology is a bit harsh, but as someone who does not have kids, and who's rapidly running out of time and doesn't care much, it's also rather funny. If other people want to have them, that's fine and dandy, but the assumption that everyone does is what I enjoy pointing and laughing at. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	redpanda 2003-08-24 12:45 am UTC (link)
	shrug Think/believe as you wish, but there's no call for being that disgustingly VICIOUS. About anything or anybody who likes/wants/believes something one doesn't. PS: Have these people forgotten that THEY were children once? With parents who, oh, I dunno, BORE THEM? Talk about messed up. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	angel_dust 2003-08-24 01:25 am UTC (link)
	I think it's hilarious. If you feel it's inappopriate language, then that's all fine and well, but I don't see a need to start the exact same wank over here as the wank that's being wanked. Er ... I guess what I'm trying to say is, I thought we were laughing at their arguement, not having the exact same one here. LOL! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	redpanda 2003-08-24 02:25 am UTC (link)
	Touche. It IS hilarious. points and laughs too :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

mythdefied
2003-08-26 02:47 am UTC (link)

I was on that community for a while but I too found it a bit harsh for me. I don't like kids and don't want them but I also respect that they're people and deserving of due consideration.

That said, I'm now going to risk turning the commentary into a wank itself by pointing out that this:

PS: Have these people forgotten that THEY were children once?

is the argument presented by every single person who can't understand why some people don't like/want kids, and it's gotten to the point that every time I see/hear it, I want to slap whomever said it because it's pointless! What the hell does it have to do with anything? What, just because I was a kid once means I'm supposed to automatically like kids myself? I guess that means that since I'm a woman I should like every other woman in existence. Makes about as much sense. Having been something is no guarantee or grounds for me to like/identify with that same thing now.

I'm going to stop there or I'll really pull out the soapbox and start shouting.

I'm not personally attacking you, or at least I hope I'm not, just that attitude presented by so many people. It really gets under my skin.

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	A LITTLE overboard with the paranoid bitterness, mm? redpanda 2003-08-26 05:51 am UTC (link)
	Uhhhhh...ooookaaaaaay. I didn't say you had to like ANYTHING or do ANYTHING, just...man. Live and let live. Jeez. Craaaazy bitter lady. backs away slowly, keeping my hands in sight and not breaking eye contact until I can edge around a corner and flee (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: A LITTLE overboard with the paranoid bitterness, mm? mythdefied 2003-08-26 06:19 am UTC (link)
	sigh See? And there's the other reaction we get. Obviously we're mentally unstable. If I sounded a little out there, it's because I'm just tired of hearing that comment over and over. I'm actually more annoyed than angry and no, not at all bitter, just...tired of it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Pity. Judging by your exccedingly cool icon, I thought you might actually be fun to talk to. redpanda 2003-08-26 06:57 am UTC (link)
	Gosh, ma'am, I'm SO sorry I'm predictable. Maybe you keep hearing it because it's true, eh...? This is boring. And seeing as your next reply is going to be "Hah, they always say that too," let me just pre-emptively throw up my hands, say "whatever," and wander off. Toodles. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Pity. Judging by your exccedingly cool icon, I thought you might actually be fun to talk to.

mythdefied
2003-08-26 07:05 am UTC (link)

What's with all the insulting from your direction? I tried to be specific in my first post that I wasn't attacking anyone, just a general attitude. I'm sorry if you felt like it was a personal attack as it wasn't intended to be one, but it's no call for you to start insulting me seeing as how I've done nothing of the sort to you.

Not that I'm not tempted now because yes, you've gotten me angry. If that was your goal, congratulations.

You're right, this isn't at all worth it. Bye.

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	fandom_bitch 2003-08-24 02:04 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, some of the terms may be harsh but to be honest, I found the comments to be rather amusing, considering half the folks on the list thought the original poster was a troll (and I tend to agree). Very wanky. Am greatly amused. I'm childfree as well, and I know for a fact I was a little shit when I was a rugrat. I wouldn't have wished me on anyone. (Reply to this)

	tempslut 2003-08-24 04:17 am UTC (link)
	I don't know whether I will ever have children, but my god, a good majority of the people seemed vicious to me. I don't know whether I'd write the poster off as a troll. It isn't like she wrote, "EVUL CHILDFREE PEPUL CHANJ UR WAYZ OR GO 2 HELL!!!111" But then, to some people, any criticism means you're trolling. (Once again, just my opinion.) (Reply to this)(Thread)

oxydosic
2003-08-24 08:31 pm UTC (link)

But then, to some people, any criticism means you're trolling. (Once again, just my opinion.)

Some people in the community are very vocal when it comes to that. And i don't even think this person was being rude. They just said 'maybe the terminology is a bit too much' and didn't yell or anything. But some people just think if they're not allowed to do and say anything they want without someone going 'i don't agree', they feel the need to blow up.

I've seen them do it to people who have kids and come by to say how impressed they are with how maturely most of the community handles themselves, etc. These people were being NICE and at least a couple people would yell at them or get offended as if they'd told them they totally sucked.

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	lots42 2003-08-25 03:27 am UTC (link)
	Well, it -is- a childfree community. As in, no parents. Well, that's what I hoped. But the moderators allow some parents to post. Oy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

deslea
2003-08-25 10:54 am UTC (link)

Strictly, the userinfo says that you are welcome to join if you are childfree or support the childfree lifestyle. Personally, I chose not to join, even though I support the childfree lifestyle, because of the vicious language used there. I don't want to be seen to endorse that. But the fact remains that as a person with a child who supports a childfree lifestyle, by the community's statement I am allowed to join if I like, as long as I abide by the community's rules. The people who think people with children shouldn't be allowed to join (which is fair enough) need to take it up with the moderators, not take it out on the parents who join.

The argument that parents shouldn't join because they aren't themselves childfree is fair enough, but a lot of the other arguments (like, you don't share our problems therefore you must be here to troll) don't hold water. PNBs and people who have children but don't want to have any more face a lot of the same pressures as the childfree. Our families get in our faces about giving our babies siblings, as though it's our duty to pump 'em out, for instance. It's yet another facet of reproductive responsibility and our culture's refusal to support those who exercise their reproductive capabilities responsibly. Childfree people and responsible parents are on the same side, fundamentally.

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lots42
2003-08-25 01:26 pm UTC (link)

Interesting conondrum. While I woouldn't use some of the phrasing seen in the group, I do like the idea of an area where you can insult (in terms of ranting) children and not being insulted in turn.

P.S. Childfree members are probably gunshy around parents. As you might imagine, the topic has been the target of many a clever troll. Or just plain out and out weird parents who snap when they don't see that 'They're the special one, totally unlike every other parent ever'. Now there are a few parents who do behave re: the childfree groups but there are just so many who haven't.

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deslea
2003-08-26 12:39 am UTC (link)

Interesting conondrum. While I woouldn't use some of the phrasing seen in the group, I do like the idea of an area where you can insult (in terms of ranting) children and not being insulted in turn.

This I can understand. I'm not opposed to a childfree community that is exclusively for people who don't have children. But it's up to the community to negotiate the making of that space with the moderator.

I dunno. I just think it's possible to rant about individual morons without denying basic the human dignity of a whole class of people. The problem with irresponsible parents isn't the "parents" part, it's the "irresponsible" part IMO.

My personal ideal scenario is that there would be a main childfree comm as a general mixed-audience place for all childfree and childfree-supportive people where a certain moderation of language is expected - no derogatory language, civil debate of childfree issues that has room for all parts of the spectrum. And then there would be offshoots which were more "niche interest" where less discretion was needed - one for PNBs, one for childfree people who want to rant no-holds-barred, one for people with VHEMT leanings, etc. I think this would be the best of both worlds and conducive to a healthy co-existence. Like I said, I really do think we're all on the same side.

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	snowball 2003-08-26 07:40 am UTC (link)
	What exactly is a PNB? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	deslea 2003-08-26 12:18 pm UTC (link)
	PNB stands for Parent(s)-Not-Breeder(s). It signifies someone who actively parents and shows responsibility in the raising of children, as opposed to a mindless pump-'em-out, let-'em-run-wild mentality, signified by BNP (Breeder-Not-Parent). (Reply to this)(Parent)

iczer6
2003-08-25 10:07 pm UTC (link)

Folks at Childfree don't like kids. They don't actively work to hurt children. It's not a the Kill Kids community for God's sake.

From what I've seen it's really about people venting about negligent parents who never take responsibility for their child, and children who are spoiled brats who do things like wreck movies, annoy customers, and basically are allowed to act like they rule the world.

Terms like 'crotch dropping' are really meant to be funny, and I seriously doubt any member would use them outside of the community [or among friends.]

And don't like don't read.

Icz

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deslea
2003-08-26 12:29 am UTC (link)

Eh, it's the mentality of the terms that I don't like. "Crotch dropping" is basically saying that childred are, by definition, pieces of shit. I don't think that's really very funny. Furthermore, there's a philosophical problem - if they're so gung ho about parents taking responsibility for parenting, why are they saying that children are shit? If the child is a little shit, isn't that the parent's wrongdoing, rather than the child's? You (general you) can't have it both ways - if you want people to take responsibility for forming children into decent human beings, which is a worthy thing to want, then you have to acknowledge that children have the potentiality of being decent human beings. That's totally at variance with the mentality that would use a blanket term for children that means they're pieces of shit.

And no, I don't have to read it. And I'm not telling them they can't write it. But I'm free to think it's ugly and at variance with what I, as a supporter of reproductive responsibility, consider to be authentic childfree principles.

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iczer6
2003-08-26 12:33 am UTC (link)

{"Crotch dropping" is basically saying that childred are, by definition, pieces of shit. I don't think that's really very funny.}

Which is the heart of the problem. I think it's a hilarious term, you don't. Please stop reading into something that was never intended to be serious in the first place. I can't recall anyone on there saying children are shit.

You are allowed to be offended, but kindly do NOT start copping a Holier Than Thou attitude. Yes people are going to say rude, stupid things, you don't have to like them, or even agree with them, but don't make something into a personal crusade that's really just tasteless humor.

Icz

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	deslea 2003-08-26 12:42 am UTC (link)
	Any ideology will be wanky - isn't that why this is here to begin with? Wank happens when some people approach things philosophically and others don't. That's fine. Neither is better or worse. But when you (general you) express yourself in an ideological forum like Childfree, you have to expect to have your words interpreted ideologically by a good part of your audience. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kimera 2003-08-25 10:48 pm UTC (link)
	that while there are places to bring a screaming, squalling child, a hospital is decidedly not one of them. scratches head Actually... wouldn't it, um, make sense to bring a screaming kid in to a hospital in some situations? Like, say, if he'd fallen and split his head open, or something? (Reply to this)(Thread)

mythdefied
2003-08-26 02:54 am UTC (link)

that while there are places to bring a screaming, squalling child, a hospital is decidedly not one of them.

*scratches head* Actually... wouldn't it, um, make *sense* to bring a screaming kid in to a hospital in some situations? Like, say, if he'd fallen and split his head open, or something?

I think the reference is to uninjured children with parents who won't control them; same as any other public place.

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	lots42 2003-08-29 05:05 am UTC (link)
	If the kid isn't injured, it doesn't belong in a hospital. Period. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rann 2003-09-07 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	So, if their parent/loved one was in the last minutes of their life and it was that child's last chance to see them, they wouldn't belong there because of possible annoyance to you at seeing a child somewhere they "didn't belong"? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lots42 2003-09-08 01:44 am UTC (link)
	Oh for crying out loud. I'm not a heartless monster. Every rule has an exception or two. Sheesh. And I don't want kids in hospital simply because 'they don't belong'. It's more complicated then that. Hospitals are full of sick people and kids are undue stresses and many times, germ vectors. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	unnamed 2003-08-26 10:49 pm UTC (link)
	I hate to say it, but the wank in these comments is actually more amusing than the original wank itself. Still, either way works for me. Whee, wank! (Reply to this)(Thread)

	rann 2003-09-07 09:49 pm UTC (link)
	Indeed, and verily, I have just added to it. splurts on self (Reply to this)(Parent)