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	white_serpent 2006-04-13 12:47 am UTC (link)
	What good reasons can you give me to believe that Al-Qaeda actually was responsible for 9/11? Oh, the government says so? Why should I trust them, when it's common knowledge that the vast majority of the politicians are a bunch of lying, thieving, backstabbing, money-grubbing fucks? I call troll. Particularly once he gets into the "Freedom of Speech" debate. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	dracothelizard 2006-04-13 12:50 am UTC (link)
	Has Bush discovered LJ at last? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jira 2006-04-13 12:51 am UTC (link)
	OT. YOU. GET ON MSN NOW. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	dracothelizard 2006-04-13 12:51 am UTC (link)
	Yes sir! Maam! Maam... sir. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jira 2006-04-13 12:53 am UTC (link)
	... Oh, you only wish so you could write some freaky story about it. No, wait, that's me. :P (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jenova 2006-04-13 12:55 am UTC (link)
	Definitely falls into the whole "really really hope it's a troll" category, anyway. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	iwanttobeasleep 2006-04-13 01:40 am UTC (link)
	If he isn't, that's a whole new level of stupid. I'm almost tempted to say he isn't because, my god, what kind of a mind comes up with that, even as a joke? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mmanurere 2006-04-13 07:12 am UTC (link)
	This potential troll wouldn't even have to be the person to come up with that; the conspiracy theories are already all over the place regarding this one. They have documentaries. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	khym_chanur 2006-04-13 04:36 am UTC (link)
	What good reasons can you give me to believe that Al-Qaeda actually was responsible for 9/11? Ummm, because Bin Laden eventually took credit for it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	white_serpent 2006-04-13 05:00 am UTC (link)
	One would think that would be an excellent sign, yes. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	miss_padfoot 2006-04-13 07:29 am UTC (link)
	I dunno. I hear that multiple terrorist groups like to take credit for these sorts of things as a way of recruiting new members, i.e. "Look what we did! We are powerful and crazeh and we kill Americans effectively! You can too!" I'm not sure who else, if anyone, took credit for the 9/11 attacks though, so I might just be talking out of my ass. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	winter 2006-04-13 09:09 am UTC (link)
	I think 9/11 was actually remarkable in that it pretty much stunned everyone and no-one took credit for it because hello, painting a big bull's eye on your ass... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	white_serpent 2006-04-13 04:19 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, there was about half an hour on 9/11 when it was reported some other group might be taking credit for it... until they started screaming, "No! No! We never said that! It was not us!" (Reply to this)(Parent)

	greenling 2006-04-14 01:59 am UTC (link)
	Of course that might just mean that they were the only group stupid enough not to realize that we were really, really pissed off this time. ;3 (Reply to this)(Parent)

	queencallipygos 2006-04-13 02:19 pm UTC (link)
	No, there are a metric fuckton of folk like him. Many of them here in the city regularly fapping away with their own little weird conspiracy theories. They've been at it since about three days hours after the actual attack. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	queencallipygos 2006-04-13 02:20 pm UTC (link)
	Dammit, how do I do strikethrough text? That was supposed to have a strikethrough on "days". (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mambo 2006-04-13 02:33 pm UTC (link)
	[s]~~like this~~[/s] Like that, but with... you know. Those pointy-things that aren't brackets. The ones that are pre-algebra. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	queencallipygos 2006-04-13 03:53 pm UTC (link)
	Just the "s". Got it. Thanks. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	antigone 2006-04-13 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	Waaa? All this time I've been spelling out [strike] like a loser! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	selene_avis 2006-04-17 09:54 pm UTC (link)
	~~So have I, dammit!~~ (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ravenscanary 2006-04-13 01:20 am UTC (link)
	... "Shiimo kid" made me laugh. Out loud. shamed (Reply to this)(Thread)

	azhidahaki 2006-04-13 03:59 am UTC (link)
	I laughed too. Loudly. (Reply to this)(Parent)

aerobot
2006-04-13 12:29 pm UTC (link)

Y'know, I'm getting REALLY tired of the - 'Christianity doesn't massacre people anymore, unlike Islam!' - argument.

So fucking what? Do they want a cookie or something?

I don't care if Christianity stopped it last week or the last millennium - they still did it, were capable of it, and it's always possible for it to happen again. So if anyone thinks that 'we don't do it anyMORE' is an okay excuse to look down on another religion needs a fucking bitchslap.

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	... schmendrick 2006-04-13 04:37 pm UTC (link)
	Going to respectfully disagree. (Reply to this)(Parent)

cadesama
2006-04-13 06:13 pm UTC (link)

Word. It's stickier than that anyway. So Christianity doesn't blow people up. What about telling congregations in Africa that condoms spread AIDS? Is that not a massacre? And how recently are we counting as "anymore", anyway? I'm sure some militias in Africa claim Christian affiliation. And while the IRA didn't exactly say they were working in God's name, that's another group of Christians that routinely blew people up until recently.

The point being, of course, that people are nasty and no matter what the religion (yeah, even Buddhists) you are talking about, there's a darker history to it. Religion for the most part is the justification, not the cause.

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	frequentmouse 2006-04-13 06:27 pm UTC (link)
	Much word. No matter what the core teachings of any religion, there are adherants who mostly use the name of the religion to cover for their own impulses to cause other people pain. (Reply to this)(Parent)

belafarinrod
2006-04-13 06:47 pm UTC (link)

hat about telling congregations in Africa that condoms spread AIDS? Is that not a massacre?

If anything, I always found that worse for three reasons... 1) It's just plain murder, it's not spreading any message 2) Killing your own believers, HELLO? At least the muslim fundies think they are murdering infidels 3) They're responsible for a lot more death and suffering, if you just start counting bodies. Also slowly wasting away in aids and see your kids and country go to the rats vs. Kaboom!Death? Hmm....

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	isntitironic 2006-04-13 02:20 pm UTC (link)
	I thought about posting that one, but decided it wasn't worth the effort. It's no fun when they're trying that hard. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jira 2006-04-13 02:58 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not sure if they posted with the intention of STARTING wank or if they honestly thought it was funny. ><; And if they thought it was funny, that's ... a bit surprising. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	marciamarcia 2006-04-13 02:59 pm UTC (link)
	Good to see that our old friend, ikilled007, manages to be involved in this. (Reply to this)

rachelthedemon
2006-04-13 03:32 pm UTC (link)

*reads the quote context*

Um, no. I think the disconnect here is that Muslims don't see Sharia as oppression anymore than we Americans see our Constitution as oppression. To them, it's the law, it's been that way for way longer than our measily two centuries, and they don't feel like changing it. The cheerleaders for capitalist democracy don't seem to get that, and are instead trying to force their system of government and economics on people who don't want it. And I'm sorry, but we don't have the right to do that. Capitalist democracy doesn't work for everybody.

Islam is more like a BDSM couple whose vanilla-worshipping neighbors, friends, and 5th cousins twice removed are trying to convince them that they're abusing each other.

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wickedwitch
2006-04-13 04:39 pm UTC (link)

Well, I would agree with that were it not for all those pesky executions of women who hurt men while protecting themselves from being raped and the like. It's less BDSM and more that crazy who wrote up an ownership "contract" for his wife and was surprised when she called police on his pansy ass. (Then again, Muslim and Muslim are as different as Baptist and Eastern Orthodox.)

That's not to say the Christian "Screw you guys, I'm opening my own church!" "OMG, U H00r!" Religion is more high-brow entertainment. We've moved past Springer and right back into Judge Joe Brown territory.

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rachelthedemon
2006-04-13 05:00 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, there are crazies in every group. But specifically regarding the context of the original quote being that Muslims whine like battered wives about being oppressed but yell "OMG my man loves me don't talk bad about him!" is a pretty egocentric view of things.

Yeah, their treatment of women, among others, is oppressive, deplorable, and disturbing. But if the oppressed don't want our "help," to the point of killing anyone who tries, then that should be our cue to leave them alone.

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goldberry
2006-04-13 06:13 pm UTC (link)

The problem is with assuming that Muslims as a group are all in complete agreement about how they feel about Sharia, etc. There are plenty of Muslim women and men who feel that it's absolute crap, and quite a few of them would seriously not mind a little backup, at least in the form of some consciousness raising, funding, etc. They're no more in complete agreement about what sort of help they want than people in the West are about the various laws we should and shouldn't support.

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rachelthedemon
2006-04-13 06:26 pm UTC (link)

Good point. I guess assuming that just because one wears a badge, they agree with everything that organization stands for is a pretty stupid way of looking at things.

I'm more of the opinion that the real problem with our brand of "help" is that one minute we say "YAY, GO AND ELECT YOUR LEADER! YOU'RE ALL FREE AND STUFF!," then in the next breath, "You picked THAT GUY? Sorry, we don't like him, so we're going to kick him out and put in the guy WE want to govern you. Ain't democracy wonderful?" And then we make the citizens whom we stole the election from out to be the bad guys when they get fed up with our meddling.

I think we might have a better reputation over there if we, yanno, kept our word once in a while.

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goldberry
2006-04-13 06:31 pm UTC (link)

Now that I definitely agree with. I think at this point even a lot of the people who would like a little help solving some of the more serious human rights problems they have are saying "Oh, so you're going to "help" are you? Faaabulous.", and in their position, I'm pretty sure I'd react the exact same way. Not to mention the fact that it's become clear that the American government isn't really interested in preventing human rights violations unless there's, say, some oil in it for them. *Headdesk*

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	rachelthedemon 2006-04-13 06:43 pm UTC (link)
	points to Desert Storm Pre-fuckin'-cisely. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ayezur
2006-04-13 10:33 pm UTC (link)

When someone makes a move
Of which we don't approve,
Who is it that always intervenes?
U.N. and O.A.S.
They have their place, I guess,
But first - send the Marines!

We'll send them all we've got,
John Wayne and Randolph Scott;
Remember those exciting fighting scenes?
To the shores of Tripoli,
But not to Mississippoli,
What do we do? We send the Marines!

For might makes right,
And till they've seen the light,
They've got to be protected,
All their rights respected,
Till somebody we like can be elected.

Members of the corps
All hate the thought of war;
They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means.
Stop calling it aggression,
Ooh, we hate that expression!
We only want the world to know
That we support the status quo.
They love us everywhere we go,
So when in doubt,
Send the Marines!

All hail Tom Lehrer.

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	queencallipygos 2006-04-13 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	I'll meet you both in "fandom_discuss" to continue this? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	redwarrior 2006-04-15 06:20 am UTC (link)
	OMG WORD. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	wrongly_amused 2006-04-14 07:44 am UTC (link)
	Oh, c'mon guys, don't miss the consolation prize here - Christianity/Scientology wank! (Reply to this)

	redwarrior 2006-04-15 06:18 am UTC (link)
	...But isn't that applicable to ALL religions and ALL fandoms? (Reply to this)