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lonely rolling star ([info]miss_arel) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2006-07-19 13:11:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:amused

Next chapter and verse, same as the first....
It's my first report, OMG DUN BE MEEEEN.

fangtsu posts in the LJ feminist comm about two sexism related issues he encountered at work: one involving his boss valuing fangtsu's opinion over that of a female coworker, and the other involving fangtsu having trouble finding a new job because he has long hair and wears earrings (i.e. "isn't manly".)

First comment:
You're a male, correct? If so, then this isn't sexism.

And they're off! Semantics arguments abound, dictionary definitions of sexism are trotted out not once, but twice, there are accusations of hatred of white men (which are, of course, denied) and the requisite threats to leave to community and go to the anti_feminism side of the Force.</a> 131 comments and counting. But THAT'S NOT ALL!

The wank continues in this post titled "Definitions of Sexism", which is, as we know, always a subject for calm and rational debate on this comm.

Not huge yet, but it can only grow from here.

Edit: Fixed the HTML WTFery.




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(Post a new comment)


dracothelizard
2006-07-19 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Oh man, it's every 'black people can't be racist!' wank all over again.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-19 09:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mcity, 2006-07-19 11:08 pm UTC

flightstothesea
2006-07-19 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Discrete = separate, distinct

Discreet = exercising restraint


/pedantry

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2006-07-19 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2006-07-19 09:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2006-07-19 09:58 pm UTC

[info]gal_montag
2006-07-19 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Annnd, [info]doja fails.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antigone, 2006-07-19 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gal_montag, 2006-07-19 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleon, 2006-07-19 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gal_montag, 2006-07-19 09:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antigone, 2006-07-19 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]suziecroft, 2006-07-19 10:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_arel, 2006-07-19 10:32 pm UTC

[info]napoleon
2006-07-19 08:46 pm UTC (link)
recorded_time's impression of a troll is really coming along!

(Reply to this)


[info]visp
2006-07-19 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Oh god, it's the "black people aren't racist" thing, and it's spreading. I need to find out who started that thing and hit them very hard.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladyvorkosigan
2006-07-19 08:55 pm UTC (link)
I've been waiting for this to show up here. I don't know - I can see both sides of the argument, but the discourse the [info]feminist members always use to support it always seems to me like they're making women out to be these helpless, passive, stomped upon creatures who can do naught but act out society's every dictate, whereas men have agency they can use to oppress people on a higher level.

Eh, whatever.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-07-19 08:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madelfdisease, 2006-07-20 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_arel, 2006-07-19 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-19 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_arel, 2006-07-20 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alpheratz, 2006-07-20 04:18 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-20 05:39 pm UTC

[info]wrongly_amused
2006-07-19 09:26 pm UTC (link)
I'd agree that sexism was female only *IF* we define it semantically the way we do racism: that people in position of power (i.e. the "majority") have the ability to make this prejudice work at a socially discriminate level. *However,* as a broad statement, I think sexism can work both ways, especially here where a female stereotype is being used on a men. In both cases, genders are insulted: woman, because the commentary suggests that a female applicant holds lesser value, and men because society continues to cling to a particular image of power represented by the image of the tall, broad-shouldered, intimidating manly man.

Either way, we all lose.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mmanurere, 2006-07-20 01:28 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-07-19 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Can we kick recorded_time out of the female gender? She's making it look bad.

~Luna

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]toph, 2006-07-19 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-19 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-07-19 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachelmap, 2006-07-20 12:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-07-20 12:53 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-20 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]honorh, 2006-07-19 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]judyhazeleyes, 2006-07-20 03:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]female_fanboy, 2006-07-20 11:11 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-24 03:57 am UTC

[info]trinka
2006-07-19 09:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh man...

For the first time in quite a while I was tempted to dive right in there. But I have restrained myself.

I'm so tired of hearing about feminism. I'm sure discrimination happens, but with all the crap going on in the world today you'd think there would some greater injustice to complain about.

I'm a waitress and if anything I make more money than the guys who wait along side me.

*closes the community window before she gets more irked*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2006-07-19 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinka, 2006-07-20 07:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]palefire, 2006-07-19 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toph, 2006-07-19 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madelfdisease, 2006-07-20 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - ealusaid, 2006-07-20 05:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinka, 2006-07-20 07:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]melusina, 2006-07-20 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 02:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 04:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 04:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 04:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 05:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 05:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-20 05:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2006-07-21 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-21 07:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinka, 2006-07-20 07:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jenny_atrox, 2006-07-20 07:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinka, 2006-07-20 07:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eilan, 2006-07-20 10:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinka, 2006-07-20 03:27 pm UTC

[info]sepiamagpie
2006-07-19 10:29 pm UTC (link)
See, this is why I don't use terms. I just call everyone assholes. And then sneak off to get a beer.

disclaimer: Sep didn't feel like reading the wank and for all he knows, you're talking about kittens in the comments. ...man, this post needs kittens. Get to work.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]feloniousfeline, 2006-07-19 11:04 pm UTC
Apparently I suck at HTML. - [info]puipui, 2006-07-19 11:18 pm UTC
Re: Apparently I suck at HTML. - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]scootermcgaffin, 2006-07-19 11:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saralina25, 2006-07-20 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]judyhazeleyes, 2006-07-20 03:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]drakyndra, 2006-07-20 07:48 am UTC

[info]exdee
2006-07-19 10:30 pm UTC (link)
sociological definitions don't mix well with Earth Logic.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mcity, 2006-07-19 11:15 pm UTC

[info]palefire
2006-07-19 10:39 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, but talking about white and male privilege is NOT white men hating. All you're doing is rehashing the "feminists are man-hating!" idea.

I think you're doing a dandy job of justifying that opinion with that ZOMGOPPRESSION schtick. Woe.

(Reply to this)


[info]mcity
2006-07-19 11:13 pm UTC (link)
[info]recorded_time: seems to have a habit of saying "It wasn't sexism" in every post. Like she doesn't believe in fairies, or something.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

PS - [info]mcity, 2006-07-19 11:24 pm UTC
Re: PS - [info]palefire, 2006-07-20 01:25 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]mcity, 2006-07-20 01:29 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]jat_sapphire, 2006-07-20 04:18 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]mcity, 2006-07-20 01:00 pm UTC
Re: PS - [info]jat_sapphire, 2006-07-20 01:06 pm UTC

[info]frequentmouse
2006-07-19 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Are the people saying "Thanks for reminding me of the community rules." being passive-aggressive and bitchy? I can't tell, but I really really need them to be, or my faith in the next generation of women falls flat.

Feminist!=agreeing with all other people who call themselves feminists.

ARGH

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-07-19 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-07-20 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lovelypoet, 2006-07-20 06:48 am UTC

[info]auguris
2006-07-20 12:01 am UTC (link)
Aw, look, it's the reason why I left feminist. I wonder if any of these people have ever done anything about sexism besides write in their blog about it.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladyvorkosigan
2006-07-20 12:07 am UTC (link)
In a similar vein, this anti_feminist post links to a pretty hysterical [info]feminist_rage post about the white man's patriarchal science (not that science isn't often patriarchal, just in this case. . .I remain, let's say, unconvinced).

(Reply to this)


[info]aerobot
2006-07-20 01:08 am UTC (link)
Could we all please stop using the fucking White Male Dictionary O'Truth to define racism and sexism? Jesus, just think about it!

OMG, even the dictionary is oppressive! :O

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arionhunter, 2006-07-20 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-20 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napoleon, 2006-07-20 04:23 am UTC
Continued in Next Comment... - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 04:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-21 12:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aerobot, 2006-07-21 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - redwarrior, 2006-07-21 05:53 pm UTC

[info]quinctia
2006-07-20 04:12 am UTC (link)
I'm curious. Statistically speaking, minority men are less likely to be successful in school and make it through and to higher education than minority women.

So in their experiences, they must be experiencing some sort of sexism. They can't be gaining power by not getting educated. If it were just racism, then they'd be on par with minority women.

Okay, okay. I know it's because of culture gender roles and a conflict between white and minority cultures and higher and lower socioeconomic class. But no one's answered why the gap exists, or why it's starting to widen across ALL demographics for men and women. (Though definitely not yet in so-called "hard" sciences.)

I think it's because girls are told they can do anything now, and boys are told they can do anything as long as it's butch and manly and isn't girly, and I think that's sexist and oppressive. :(

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-21 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-22 01:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2006-07-22 01:31 am UTC

[info]frau_eva
2006-07-20 04:30 am UTC (link)
This is a concept that I have honestly not fleshed out completely in my mind yet. I do not believe that a woman can be sexist (though she can be prejudiced and discriminatory) against a MTF transsexual, and yet I'm not sure if a MTF transsexual can be sexist against a woman. It requires a lot more thought than I've put into it, and I think it'd also vary greatly depending on what stage of transformation the transsexual is in. On the other hand, could a FTM transsexual be sexist?....again, my instinct is to say no, but I'm not sure.

This is the most perfectly illustrative example of why the "women can't be sexist" argument is illogical. Good job forming a black-and-white theory around a concept like gender, which you've already admitted to being fluid. Seriously, why did no one jump her ass for this?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 04:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2006-07-20 05:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2006-07-20 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adora_spintriae, 2006-07-20 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-07-20 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adora_spintriae, 2006-07-20 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2006-07-21 04:30 am UTC

[info]yashahime
2006-07-20 05:15 am UTC (link)
Sexism involves power and privilige. THere is no female privilige, but there is male privilige. Someone can be prejudiced against males, but it's not sexism.

Dear god, WHYYYYYYY!? *cries* How STUPID are these people? Of COURSE there is female privilege. Hell, the fact that the poor guy is supposed to have to "cut his hair like a man" is proof all by itself; only women, by that statement, have the PRIVILEGE of having long hair.

Jeeze Louise, this is why I refuse to consider myself a feminist!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jenny_atrox, 2006-07-20 08:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yashahime, 2006-07-20 11:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eilan, 2006-07-20 10:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yashahime, 2006-07-20 11:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 06:35 pm UTC

[info]jenny_atrox
2006-07-20 08:08 am UTC (link)
What definition would recorded_time like us to use? Seriously. How the hell else can you define sexism?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fevered_ego, 2006-07-21 01:52 pm UTC

[info]eilan
2006-07-20 10:16 am UTC (link)
So, can someone explain to me whether I am getting it right?

Women can't be sexist because they don't hold power.

So neither Angela Merkel nor my hopefully future boss who I have a job interview with this evening, nor my female professors can be sexist. Because women don't hold power.

Isn't that view sexist in itself?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]belafarinrod, 2006-07-20 11:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eilan, 2006-07-20 12:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belafarinrod, 2006-07-20 12:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wickedwitch, 2006-07-20 05:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-07-20 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belafarinrod, 2006-07-20 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - iwanttobeasleep, 2006-07-20 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-07-20 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 12:59 am UTC
I lose at HTML - [info]adora_spintriae, 2006-07-20 10:46 pm UTC
Re: I lose at HTML - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 10:50 pm UTC
Re: I lose at HTML - [info]adora_spintriae, 2006-07-20 11:00 pm UTC
Re: I lose at HTML - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 12:56 am UTC
See Adora be tl;dr again... - [info]adora_spintriae, 2006-07-21 07:40 am UTC
Re: See Adora be tl;dr again... - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 02:15 pm UTC
Re: See Adora be tl;dr again... - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 02:31 pm UTC
Re: I lose at HTML - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-07-21 01:03 am UTC
Re: Deleted and Rephrased - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 02:31 am UTC
Re: Furthermore... - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 02:41 am UTC
Re: Furthermore... - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-07-21 03:06 am UTC
Re: Furthermore... - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-21 03:47 am UTC
Re: Furthermore... - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-07-21 05:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-07-21 12:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]madelfdisease, 2006-07-20 12:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belafarinrod, 2006-07-20 01:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madelfdisease, 2006-07-20 01:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]selene_avis, 2006-07-20 02:25 pm UTC

[info]chaimonkey
2006-07-21 06:07 am UTC (link)
Roll over, [info]fangtsu. Now there's a good boy. Cookie!

(Reply to this)


[info]fevered_ego
2006-07-21 06:44 am UTC (link)
Wow, ladies. Way to elevate the status of your gender by behaving like a stereotype of all its worst traits!

I'd golf clap for this delicious execution of irony in action, but golf is a tool of the patriarchy so I'll just sit here and eat this cheesecake instead. Because that is what sexism is all about: eating cheesecake and laughing at cracktivism.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2006-07-22 05:54 am UTC (link)
birdlawyer - "Oh yes, because calling a bunch of women "catty" is just oh-so feminist."

I love how if you're feminist you're never allowed to call any woman anything bad. I'm sorry, but if a woman's acting like a bitch, then I'm going to call her a bitch. And if that makes me anti-feminist so be it. But it's bullshit that suddenly in order to be "feminist" you have to be nice to all women everywhere.

(Reply to this)



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