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Kah Roh Seh ([info]kahrohseh) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2006-10-18 21:51:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Parenthood, Like Homosexuality, Is Not A Choice
Or so sayeth a wanker in Poor Skills, anyway, LJ's dominant source for incredibly tedious whiny advice posts, stupid food spoilage questions, and the occasional, very rare speck of useful information.

This is not one of these.

It starts when someone posts the following, which has since been deleted:

Poor Skills & Children
Let me preface this post by saying that it will probably offend someone. However, it's really not my intention to offend anyone, I'd just like some honest answers/opinions.

Okay, so we talk about poor skills in this community, ways to cook cheaply, rent cheaply, repair credit and old cars, etc. However, never in this community have I seen much reference to the one poor skill that can save you more money than any other, which is choosing to not have children or at least to not have them until you're financially stable enough to do so (kids are REALLY expensive). I've seen online articles saying that children cost roughly $100,000 (not sure if that figure is accurate) to raise. That's PER child. So why, if you can't even support yourself financially are you bringing a child into this world? I understand that s*** happens and so do accidents, but with modern birth control, there is absolutely no reason for accidents to happen (unless of course you're part of the 0.03% that had The Pill fail). Answers/opinions? Again, I'm not a troll, nor am I looking to start a huge debate.

(Taken from the mouse on Wank Report)

Then, tonight, Danaseilhan makes this statement: No poor-bashing! And btw, if you guys don't cut it out, I'm making my own comm where I can BAN j00. Also, hear my tragic tale.

To which I thought, meh, because I sort of have a midterm to write here, but then I noticed the ~250 comments and decided to investigate.

OMG SO OFFENDED bitching spawned from bad wording and some people quick to up-hackle? You don't say.

Random flaming disguised as civil discourse? You bet.

My fav, though? Apparently, parenthood, like homosexuality, is not a choice omg.

That's as far as I got before realising I reeeeally needed to back away and go do my homework. However, I do encourage you all to enjoy.

(And yes, the childfree are mightily in abundance, as are their many detractors. There's no sense to link because, really. Just click randomly and you'll get a face full of their spooge. Salty.)

ETA: Danaseilhan has gone and made her comm.

ETA2: Noooo! Bahleeted! Original mouse saved the text of the comm advert post, but does anyone have stuff from the main spooge post?


(Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2006-10-19 05:07 am UTC (link)
I've not felt so stupid for reading anything since Touched by Venom.

(Reply to this)


[info]wrongly_amused
2006-10-19 05:33 am UTC (link)
I have an idea. If you (you in general) can't afford BC, can't get to a clinic, etc, how about abstaining from vaginal intercourse? There's always anal sex, oral sex, mutual masturbation, and so on so to enjoy sex without getting pregnant.

THE POINT
[info]kristy2078's head


For the God's sakes, could she have missed the broad side of the barn any more? The point is that people shouldn't have to sacrifice basic sexual rights because our clusterfuck of a welfare system doesn't want to provide proper education and contraceptive oppurtunities. How the fuck can you sit there and whine about how having kids is ALWAYS a choice, yet the people who are most powerfully affected by this decision are the ones who *don't* have access to the means to take care of it? They keep shoving the burden of this dilemma down the throats of impoverished families everywhere as though they somehow have the power to change it. What reality do these people live in? Why is the fault always on the poor and not the political system that is cutting off their options?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


rachelthedemon
2006-10-19 05:38 am UTC (link)
Didn't you know? Being poor is a choice, too! /sarcasm

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mmanurere, 2006-10-19 06:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luna_hoshino, 2006-10-19 08:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mmanurere, 2006-10-19 04:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachelmap, 2006-10-19 10:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyheartssiroc, 2006-10-19 02:29 pm UTC

[info]luna_hoshino
2006-10-19 07:39 am UTC (link)
We have basic sexual rights? Then why aren't I getting any, dammit?

This must be remedied at once.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]thecheese, 2006-10-20 03:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luna_hoshino, 2006-10-20 04:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thecheese, 2006-10-20 01:36 pm UTC

[info]aerobot
2006-10-19 08:07 am UTC (link)
Yeah, so, basically the poor aren't allowed to have sex, or kids. Wow, yeah, it's not like they're PEOPLE or anything.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ravenclaw_devi, 2006-10-22 12:11 pm UTC

[info]ecchaniz0r
2006-10-19 09:47 am UTC (link)
A million times fuckin' WORD.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]scarah2
2006-10-19 05:45 pm UTC (link)
I am fortunate to live in the reality that has Planned Parenthood in it. Everyone does have the means.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]oar, 2006-10-19 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 06:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2006-10-19 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antigone, 2006-10-19 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antigone, 2006-10-19 06:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 07:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2006-10-19 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - eviemouse, 2006-10-19 07:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2006-10-19 07:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chrome327, 2006-10-21 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 07:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2006-10-19 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2006-10-19 08:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antigone, 2006-10-19 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lizzypaul, 2006-10-19 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]altoidsaddict, 2006-10-19 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scarah2, 2006-10-19 09:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2006-10-20 01:53 am UTC

[info]chibicurmudgeon
2006-10-20 05:10 am UTC (link)
Okay, I completely realise and agree with you that education and contraception should be improved so that nobody has to abstain from anything and I wholeheartedly believe that parenthood should be subsidized so that anyone and everyone can afford a child. And that birth control should be free and perfected so that if one doesn't want a child, one never has to worry about creating one.

But.

Until then.

You can't tell me it doesn't make sense to abstain from vaginal sex. In this shitty situation, it is the smartest thing to do.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


rachelthedemon
2006-10-19 05:34 am UTC (link)
[info]smashingstars is my hero/ine, and [info]conceptual_tea needs his/her sex organs carved out with a bowie knife so that s/he can't reproduce. The world does not need anymore stupid floating around.

But then, I'm a lesbian and childfree. WTF do I know?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]luna_hoshino, 2006-10-19 08:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]digigirl132, 2006-10-19 04:22 pm UTC

[info]tez
2006-10-19 05:53 am UTC (link)
Wow. You know it's bad when I delete comments five times to keep myself from making a mess.

What I want to know is -- if parenthood isn't a choice and homosexuality isn't a choice, then what does that make a bisexual with a kid?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2006-10-19 06:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 06:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2006-10-19 09:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coffeebun, 2006-10-19 07:37 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2006-10-19 07:17 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2006-10-20 05:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:06 am UTC
Walt Whitman FTW - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 07:11 am UTC
Re: Walt Whitman FTW - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:17 am UTC
Re: Walt Whitman FTW - [info]lizzypaul, 2006-10-19 07:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kittikattie, 2006-10-19 06:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-19 06:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-19 07:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 07:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 08:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luna_hoshino, 2006-10-19 08:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 03:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]luna_hoshino, 2006-10-19 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2006-10-19 05:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2006-10-19 02:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]warrioreowyn, 2006-10-20 03:20 am UTC
APPLES AND ORANGES
[info]semirecluse
2006-10-19 06:47 am UTC (link)
I think parenting falls along the same lines as say - being gay

Is there a [info]jurisimprudence law about comparing incomparable things?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: APPLES AND ORANGES - [info]kittikattie, 2006-10-19 06:50 am UTC
Re: APPLES AND ORANGES - [info]antigone, 2006-10-19 11:25 pm UTC
Re: APPLES AND ORANGES - [info]kittikattie, 2006-10-20 02:44 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]jaina, 2006-10-19 07:11 am UTC

(Deleted post)

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-10-19 11:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-19 02:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zuzu, 2006-10-19 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rimrunner, 2006-10-20 05:05 am UTC

[info]mindset
2006-10-19 07:55 am UTC (link)
Oh, Danaseilhan. Friend of Ginmar and Ataniell. And from what I could learn from a short purview of her journal, a loon who makes comms all the time whenever she wants to make a point. One, caveat_troll, got TOSed because she had unlocked slanderous material pointing to certain people as trolls ("trolls" by Ginmar's definition of the term, namely people who disagree with her), but not before Ataniell posted there naming narcissam, camilla, and junediamanti to the list. Another comm is the oh-so-notable fandomwank_wank, a place to mock people who, uh, mock Ataniell and Ginmar. And make really fucking stupid assumptions. Anyway.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]theantifooosh, 2006-10-19 10:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]verpon, 2006-10-19 11:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theantifooosh, 2006-10-20 03:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-19 01:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2006-10-19 04:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2006-10-19 07:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elektra3, 2006-10-19 07:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jerry_ds_girl, 2006-10-19 11:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2006-10-20 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jerry_ds_girl, 2006-10-20 01:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2006-10-28 09:32 pm UTC

[info]aerobot
2006-10-19 08:34 am UTC (link)
"Childfreeks," eh? That's mature. Do you teach your kids that kind of tolerant behavior that you're preaching here?

Oh for fuck's SAKE.

She used a special word to deliberately refer to the nasty, extreme CFers, but that's STILL OMG OPPRESHUN.

You get all kinds of perks and freebies that people without kids don't get (I'd love to get a couple grand back at tax time for doing nothing!).

Wow, yeah, how unfair that someone gets extra support or consideration because she's got other people depending on her. And it's not like parenting is HARD or anything - babies and children can take care of themselves while you watch the soaps.

And this poster talks about nails and crosses. Pot = kettle OMGZ.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zuzu, 2006-10-19 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2006-10-19 02:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-19 10:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mookie, 2006-10-21 11:03 am UTC

[info]julian_black
2006-10-19 09:11 am UTC (link)
Oh my god. Could [info]conceptual_tea be any more doggedly clueless? Or condescending, for that matter?

And what the hell is [info]danaseilhan trying to do with that long tale of woe? Prove her superior poor cred?

She seems to make a habit of starting comms after getting offended--she once started a wanky little comm (now suspended) called [info]caveat_troll, where "troll" seemed to be defined as "people who disagree with me." She's also the maintainer of comm called [info]fandomwank_wank. Make of it what you will.

...LJ's dominant source for incredibly tedious whiny advice posts, stupid food spoilage questions, and the occasional, very rare speck of useful information.

You've described [info]poor_skills to perfection.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2006-10-19 02:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]queencallipygos, 2006-10-19 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azazello, 2006-10-19 09:38 pm UTC

[info]theantifooosh
2006-10-19 10:32 am UTC (link)
I love the people arguing back and forth whether employers discriminate against parents or non-parents.

Yes, employers only ever discriminate in one direction! Yes, your anecdotal evidence is better than the other side's anecdotal evidence! Here--have a lolly.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]april_hurst, 2006-10-19 11:05 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-19 10:56 am UTC (link)
Say what you like, anyone who can afford a PC and internet access is not what I would consider truly poor.
~ joolsmd

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snarkbunny, 2006-10-19 11:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]atalantapendrag, 2006-10-19 11:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2006-10-19 12:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - iwanttobeasleep, 2006-10-19 12:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]atalantapendrag, 2006-10-19 01:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 05:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-19 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-19 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-19 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-19 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-20 06:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2006-10-20 02:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-20 06:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2006-10-21 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-20 01:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-20 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-21 08:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-21 08:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-20 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-21 08:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-21 05:52 pm UTC
Totally done with this! Except not. - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-22 07:41 pm UTC
your punishment is my thoughts on yaoi - [info]gun, 2006-10-22 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-19 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mookie, 2006-10-21 11:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]atalantapendrag, 2006-10-21 12:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mookie, 2006-10-22 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]atalantapendrag, 2006-10-22 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onaga, 2006-10-19 01:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 02:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amyheartssiroc, 2006-10-19 02:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-19 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-19 09:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-19 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2006-10-20 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rimrunner, 2006-10-20 05:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vigilanterodent, 2006-10-20 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]exdee, 2006-10-20 03:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vigilanterodent, 2006-10-20 04:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mookie, 2006-10-21 11:44 am UTC

[info]ladyvorkosigan
2006-10-19 11:23 am UTC (link)
While the homosexuality comparison was stupid by any reasonable measure, I kind of liked it just because it was a change from "Oh my God, you guys, having kids or not having kids is NO DIFFERENT FROM DECIDING WHAT KIND OF SOCKS YOU PUT ON IN THE MORNING. Just choose the cheaper socks if you can't afford the more expensive ones YOU WELFARE QUEENS!!1!" I mean, she's the only person on the thread who seemed to get that it's a lot more fundamental than that.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-19 02:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2006-10-19 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2006-10-19 02:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rimrunner, 2006-10-20 05:02 am UTC

[info]kittikattie
2006-10-19 02:40 pm UTC (link)
OH NOES BALEETED.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kahrohseh, 2006-10-19 03:24 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-19 02:45 pm UTC (link)
Text of Danaseilhan's new community post:

"[info]brokenotbroken

'Scuse the defensive tone of the community description. I'll probably modify it in another few months when I get this outrage out of my system. (Drama queen much? Maybe. I tend to get like that when I feel attacked, and being told my daughter shouldn't exist sort of sounds like an attack.)

Anybody can join right now, but whereas some of y'all think Rule 1 only applies to some mythical Them who don't exist in this community, I won't allow any poor-bashing in mine, period. Keep that in mind and we'll all be OK."

You can guess how the Poor Skills folks responded, especially since the user info of "Broke Not Broken" bashes the Poor Skills community with "If all this freaks you out and you're just a college kid trying to stretch those financial aid dollars a bit farther and discussing kids in a positive light gives you hives and by the way, you're a member of the Libertarian Party, try [info]poor_skills--they're more your speed. Have fun."

Needless to say, several Drama Llama pics appeared in the response, now bahleeted.

-original mouse

(Reply to this)


[info]esclaramonde
2006-10-19 03:28 pm UTC (link)
Ah. Danaseilhan.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2006-10-19 04:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2006-10-19 06:53 pm UTC

[info]frequentmouse
2006-10-19 05:29 pm UTC (link)
I read the wank last night while avoiding the stupid and/or logically inconsistent bits of Lost, and the comment that really pinged with me was about a surgeon married to an accountant who was putting off getting pregnant because "we just can't afford it now."

Enough money is hella subjective; kids are expensive but actually cheaper than, say, a second car payment; even people with comfy middle-class incomes get pinched by circumstances and need to economize. And the point about reproductive freedom is that it means nobody can make the choice to have children or not except the actual uterus involved.

(Reply to this)


[info]oxydosic
2006-10-20 12:29 am UTC (link)
[info]booju_mooju is also debating this.

(Reply to this)


[info]rimrunner
2006-10-20 05:00 am UTC (link)
Apparently, parenthood, like homosexuality, is not a choice omg.

That turning up was about when I decided to abandon the whole thing and wait for it to blow over. Good lord.

ISTR that comm being a lot more useful and a lot less when I first joined it, but perhaps that's just the Nostalgia Goggles™.

(Reply to this)


[info]mookie
2006-10-21 11:15 am UTC (link)
In addition to the gross generalizations, I don't suppose anyone with children has ever been hurt by labor reduction in the work force. No, every single one of us decided that the Magical Welfairy was going to support out children, so what need for a job have we?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mookie, 2006-10-21 11:16 am UTC


 
   
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