Parenthood, Like Homosexuality, Is Not A Choice
Or so sayeth a wanker in Poor Skills, anyway, LJ's dominant source for incredibly tedious whiny advice posts, stupid food spoilage questions, and the occasional, very rare speck of useful information.

This is not one of these.

It starts when someone posts the following, which has since been deleted:

Poor Skills & Children
Let me preface this post by saying that it will probably offend someone. However, it's really not my intention to offend anyone, I'd just like some honest answers/opinions.

Okay, so we talk about poor skills in this community, ways to cook cheaply, rent cheaply, repair credit and old cars, etc. However, never in this community have I seen much reference to the one poor skill that can save you more money than any other, which is choosing to not have children or at least to not have them until you're financially stable enough to do so (kids are REALLY expensive). I've seen online articles saying that children cost roughly $100,000 (not sure if that figure is accurate) to raise. That's PER child. So why, if you can't even support yourself financially are you bringing a child into this world? I understand that s*** happens and so do accidents, but with modern birth control, there is absolutely no reason for accidents to happen (unless of course you're part of the 0.03% that had The Pill fail). Answers/opinions? Again, I'm not a troll, nor am I looking to start a huge debate.

(Taken from the mouse on Wank Report)

Then, tonight, Danaseilhan makes this statement: No poor-bashing! And btw, if you guys don't cut it out, I'm making my own comm where I can BAN j00. Also, hear my tragic tale.

To which I thought, meh, because I sort of have a midterm to write here, but then I noticed the ~250 comments and decided to investigate.

OMG SO OFFENDED bitching spawned from bad wording and some people quick to up-hackle? You don't say.

Random flaming disguised as civil discourse? You bet.

My fav, though? Apparently, parenthood, like homosexuality, is not a choice omg.

That's as far as I got before realising I reeeeally needed to back away and go do my homework. However, I do encourage you all to enjoy.

(And yes, the childfree are mightily in abundance, as are their many detractors. There's no sense to link because, really. Just click randomly and you'll get a face full of their spooge. Salty.)

ETA: Danaseilhan has gone and made her comm.

ETA2: Noooo! Bahleeted! Original mouse saved the text of the comm advert post, but does anyone have stuff from the main spooge post?

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	semirecluse 2006-10-19 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	Mmph, I'm afraid that I agree with the original mouse. But it's not imperative to me that you do so : ) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	frequentmouse 2006-10-19 10:19 pm UTC (link)
	That's really a good thing, because I think you're both sadly lacking in real-world understanding. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	semirecluse 2006-10-19 10:52 pm UTC (link)
	I guess I am curious why F_Wers appear to have such strong opinions on the matter, though. Is there some history of wank here that I'm missing? It's true that I'm not out in the Real World yet and that my family never made technology a priority. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	frequentmouse 2006-10-19 11:33 pm UTC (link)
	call when you've outrun your first hurricane</i> I think that your strong opinion on this matter is more the question, as you are apparently basing it on nothing more substantial than an inclination to argue. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	semirecluse 2006-10-20 06:40 am UTC (link)
	My opinion on this matter is by no means confident. I apologize if my question came across as argumentative; it was not meant as such. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ladybirdsleeps
2006-10-20 02:29 am UTC (link)

The strong reaction is due to the stupidity of the statement.

I wouldn't call someone who makes minimum wage, only makes rent by having roommates, survives on cheap store-brand food, and can't afford to go to the doctor anything but poor. But that person could also have $15 to spare each month to spend on things to make their lives a little more enjoyable, and choose to spend it on internet access.

Saying that people aren't poor because they own a computer and can get on the internet is offensive. It's reminiscent of the attitude that poor people's only priority should be to save every last penny they can in order to make themselves not poor, at the cost of their quality of life. It's dehumanizing.

Also, what's within our means to possess is dependent on our society. Would you call an African subsistence farmer who can barely feed his family not-poor because he owns a little land, whereas many American poor can't?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	semirecluse 2006-10-20 06:46 am UTC (link)
	It's reminiscent of the attitude that poor people's only priority should be to save every last penny they can in order to make themselves not poor, at the cost of their quality of life. I hadn't considered the validity of that assumption before. Thanks for taking the time to explain your point. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ladybirdsleeps
2006-10-21 10:29 pm UTC (link)

It's an offensive assumption, but it's common. It's even more offensive when it comes from someone who's financially privileged, and has no idea what it's like to live on a very limited budget.

Pointing to things like computers and televisions as either reasons that a person isn't poor ("you're not poor if you can afford unnecessary stuff"), reasons that a person is poor ("you wouldn't be poor if you didn't spend your money on unnecessary stuff"). or reasons that a person doesn't deserve assistance aimed at the poor ("you don't deserve my tax dollars paying for your dinner until you pawn your unnecessary stuff") -

They're all ways that privileged people blame the poor. You're going to touch a nerve if you echo those attitudes.

Plus, as has already been mentioned, you have no idea what it's like to be poor. That's not really your fault. You're privileged, your aware of it, and you're trying to learn. *clap clap*

You can get computers for pretty cheap these days. Poor people can save up, buy a cheap computer, and then keep it far longer than people with more money would. Selling it would only bring in a few bucks; it won't make a damn difference in the long run, and those few bucks would come at the cost of cheap entertainment (should poor people just stare at the walls?), keeping in touch with family and friends, your kids' education, etc.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2006-10-20 01:58 pm UTC (link)

Thank you for putting it so eloquently. <333

Mind, I also think the strong reaction comes because someone saying something like that (on the internet, proving they are at least not worse off than whoever they claim can't be poor), is because it sounds very much like a snotty, spoilt, sheltered, rich kid, who has never known what it's like to constantly worry about money, telling people who do know what that's like, that they're really well-off and have nothing to complain about.

If you're poor in a development country, you can tell me that I'm well-off and lucky. Snotty rich kids however? Not so much.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	puipui 2006-10-20 11:39 pm UTC (link)
	it sounds very much like a snotty, spoilt, sheltered, rich kid, who has never known what it's like to constantly worry about money, telling people who do know what that's like, that they're really well-off and have nothing to complain about YES. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	semirecluse 2006-10-21 08:17 am UTC (link)
	it sounds very much like a snotty, spoilt, sheltered, rich kid, who has never known what it's like to constantly worry about money, telling people who do know what that's like, that they're really well-off and have nothing to complain about Ah ha. Well, that's all you had to say. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	puipui 2006-10-21 08:31 am UTC (link)
	And yet, somehow, you inspired so many of us to say so much more. Go you! (Reply to this)(Parent)

puipui
2006-10-20 11:37 pm UTC (link)

Or maybe it's just because some of us are really, really, really poor.

This statement applies to one of the two of us. By your incredibly offensive and ignorant comments on this issue, it's obvious that the person to whom it applies is not you. If you are not too stupid, you can probably use the process of elimination to figure out which of the two of us you're offending.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

semirecluse
2006-10-21 08:37 am UTC (link)

Now you're just being nasty. Come on.

I didn't choose to be born relatively privileged. I am doing my best to educate myself about those less fortunate. Please don't use poverty as some sort of moral currency over me.

And I should probably mention that I was raised without television, video, computer, internet, cell phones or anything of the sort; it is therefore hard for me to understand that some people both identify as poor and prioritize internet access.

Anyway. Done now.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	puipui 2006-10-21 05:52 pm UTC (link)
	Look where you are. You make an asshat of yourself, and you're expecting people to be nice? Here? Bitch, please. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Totally done with this! Except not. semirecluse 2006-10-22 07:41 pm UTC (link)
	Fuck it. I got something out of it. And I can tolerate a little flaming in the cause of greater enlightenment. (Reply to this)(Parent)

your punishment is my thoughts on yaoi

gun
2006-10-22 01:17 am UTC (link)

I was raised in a privileged household as well without much in the way of TVs, computers or electronic games, but my computer has paid itself off dozens of times over by virtue of the fact that I make my income on it and it provides much in the way of cheap entertainment. And these days it's often impossible to do some things in some areas without a computer (education, uni subjects, paying bills, banking, etc).

(Reply to this)(Parent)

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