(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)

herongale
2007-04-09 03:10 am UTC (link)

My favorite bit is all the people who be dissin' Miss Manners.

I should be pointing out that Pester's reporting of Miss Manner's opinion is not explaining the full nuance of Miss Manner's (always impeccably correct) views, which would clarify that in a public establishment, such as a restaurant, the proper way to correct ANYONE (children or adult) is not to confront them directly, but report to management. And if management does not deal with the problem to one's satisfaction, it is best to again take it up with THEM.

*proves herself to be an utterly hopeless Miss Manners fangirl*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	iwanttobeasleep 2007-04-09 03:32 am UTC (link)
	See now that makes sense. If I wasn't familliar with Miss Manners though, Pester's paraphrasing of "If the parents think it's okay STFU" would get my panties in a bunch too. 'Cuz that's bullshit bullshit bullshit. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

herongale
2007-04-09 03:51 am UTC (link)

The situation which Pester describes is more in line with what you do when a child is being out-of-line in his own house and you are just a visitor. If the parents are not correcting the child, you don't.

There is a similar rule for when YOU are the host and the parent/child are your guests, because it's never appropriate to directly chastise/correct guests. However, if a child is running around in a way that endangers property or pets, it is appropriate to suggest to the parents that they do something "for the protection of the child," such as saying something like, "oh my, I hope you don't mind if I ask your child not to play in that room, there are many breakable items in there and I'm afraid she'll get hurt," blahblah nicecakes. Or, "my Fluffy is very well behaved, but when startled she occasionally does bite. Please ask your daughter to be careful, for her sake." Face saving things like that.

The idea is that if you are interacting with people on a social level, that implies that you are doing it by choice, and need to be polite because these people are either family or, allegedly, your friends.

It's all different when the children in question are strangers, and the venue is a public establishment. I'm all for Miss Manners, but the one important thing to remember is that manners are a nuanced thing. Citing her to "prove a point" just ends up making Miss Manners' advice look bad, because it's almost never appropriately contextualized or interpreted (and besides... unsolicited scolding, using Miss Manners as backup? Also Rude.).

Seriously, if there were a Miss Manners fanclub, I would be the president. I love her so much. So if I tl:dr plz be telling me to stfu, kk?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

keri
2007-04-09 04:11 am UTC (link)

OMG, I, too, am a total Miss Manners fan! We only get her two days a week in the paper, which always makes me sad because I feel that I am missing some great smackdowns on the other days.

Does she have a book compilation or anything anywhere?

Also, I totally use Miss Manners's advice when I'm at work, in a store in the mall. I've never actually read anything of hers relating to working in a store, but a lot of the what-to-do-about-guests things apply.

And that advice about disciplining children is spot on. "Oh dear, your son's Wheelies are neat, but you might want to have him stop rolling around in here. We've had accidents before, with mannikans toppling over and people running into sharp corners - and all without wheels on our shoes!" to the parents works 5ty times better than just saying to the kid "hey, stop rollerskating in here - you're not at the park!" because the parents are upset that their kids were so troublesome the sales clerk had to say something, and the kids HAVE to listen, because it's their MOM what said something.

(I loathe Wheelies. Everyone in my store is crossing her fingers that the mall bans them. It is so fucking annoying to have kids skating in circles around and around the store, potentially running into other customers or hurting themselves, or breaking something.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ealusaid
2007-04-09 04:31 am UTC (link)

Ahaha, Wheelies. My aunt and uncle are pretty good parents, but my 8-year-old cousin Cam has a wide variety of messed-up problems (ranging from Asperger's to Oppositional-Defiant Disorder) so they just facepalm at him, a lot. Once he kept wheeling around at a place with a prominent "NO ROLLER SHOES ALLOWED" sign, and an official-type person told him it was against the rules, and he gave them a pointed look of disdain. "These aren't roller shoes, these are wheelies."

I think my uncle ended up picking him up by the middle and carrying him outside. Oh, Cam.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

keri
2007-04-09 04:48 am UTC (link)

AHAHA. That happens to me all the time. I can never remember the name of the damn things when I'm actually at work. So I'll be talking to a kid because the mom's not around to be polite and mannerly to, and I'll be all "I like your roller shoes, kid. You wear them a lot? 'Cause I want you to be careful around here, so you don't get hurt. Heck, see this bruise on my arm? I wasn't even wearing roller skates when I got it on that table over there." And then they shoot me this look of disdain like you described and comletely ignore the rest of what I said to make sure I know that they're Wheelies.

Makes me want to tear my hair out, it does.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

herongale
2007-04-09 05:02 am UTC (link)

Miss Manners does in fact have several books, which can be found in the etiquette section of most bookstores (at Borders, this can be found as a subset of the reference section, near the dictionaries and encycopedias and wedding planners and stuff). I recommend The Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, as well as her Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millenium, although all of her books are great. The best parts are, of course, the question-and-answer sections, which are sometimes like mini wanks with expert pwnage all rolled into one. The Washington Post also hosts a backlog of her recent articles here, which goes back a fairly long way and which is just total fun for browsing. She is also hosted on MSN here</s>, but these articles are usually shorter. Expert pointer: the thicker, more comprehensive Miss Manners books are usually easily found in most American libraries, so that's a quick and dirty way to catch up on several decades worth of advice. Best of all, it's free. :)

I don't think her column comes out more than twice a week, however. So what you see on the Washington Post website might be all of the stuff you're getting in your local paper.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	herongale 2007-04-09 05:03 am UTC (link)
	(sorry for the html failure, but JF was acting up and wouldn't let me edit before I posted, and I didn't want to rewrite the whole thing) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	frequentmouse 2007-04-09 03:51 pm UTC (link)
	She has, though, said, that if a child is in phyiscal danger, then all bets are off. Shouting an alert, or picking up said child and getting her out of the way of danger, is the duty of whichever adult can get there first. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ladyvorkosigan
2007-04-09 05:37 pm UTC (link)

(I loathe Wheelies. Everyone in my store is crossing her fingers that the mall bans them. It is so fucking annoying to have kids skating in circles around and around the store, potentially running into other customers or hurting themselves, or breaking something.)

That is the one toy that I swear to god my hypothetical future children will never, ever possess. So fucking annoying. (Naturally, my mother, in turn, swears that will be their Christmas present from Grandma.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	Also a member of the Miss Manners Fan Club tofuknight 2007-04-11 03:28 am UTC (link)
	SHE TOTALLY DOES!! Have books out. I've seen them in bookstores, even! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	caito 2007-04-09 04:39 am UTC (link)
	Your fangirling is surprisingly infectious. Tell me more about this "Miss Manners". (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	herongale 2007-04-09 05:08 am UTC (link)
	She's a really funny, astute advice columnist, whose general advice about manners can be boiled down to, "be nice to everyone, and use your silverware properly." See my reply to misskeriface above for some links to her past columns (and I apologize for the html mess, but it should still be clear which links are to what). (Reply to this)(Parent)

	onaga 2007-04-09 04:25 am UTC (link)
	Pester's paraphrasing of "If the parents think it's okay STFU" It's Pester. Is anybody actually surprised? (Reply to this)(Parent)

vigilanterodent
2007-04-09 05:43 am UTC (link)

Miss Manners also has excellent advice about what to do when you're in a situation where you're a (timid) voice of authority, or when the voice of authority is absentee, which is to do something along the lines of "Oh, sweetie, please don't climb up on my couch, those cushions have the darnest tendency to slip loose at unexpected moments and I don't want you to hurt yourself."

The idea is that A) you stop the kid from doing what they're doing and B) tactfully attract the parents' attention to what the kid is doing, and C) do the entire thing without making anyone lose face by outright manners-correction.

I love Miss Manners.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	rachel_pi 2007-04-10 08:54 pm UTC (link)
	Miss Manners is made of pure, undiluted awesome. My debating society got to have tea with her and we were a bit worried about having an inappropriate conversation, but she started talking to us about Penn and Teller's cookbook. And also dating. It was very random, but she has a beautiful tea service. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Read comments) -