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Current music:	Heart - Soul of the Sea

Vegan Stupid: In Varying Fun, Full Flavours!
Ganked from stupid_free (I'm hoping zannechaos both doesn't mind the fact that it's borne of stupid_free and appreciative of all the effort I shall be putting into this post).

Predictable disclaimer: ~~My best friend is a vegan!~~ I'm focusing on the stupid, not the ethics, folks.

This post is like a vegan wank BOMB. You go into it expecting one little trickle and suddenly you're in a big ol' puddle of splooge. It's coming (hah!) from all directions too, I don't know where to start. I feel like Belladonna! Okay, we'll start at the beginning!

There's a post in veganism from a concerned iammicah who is going to study abroad in México. Very RURAL México. Poor, rural - you get the idea. She says she can't reasonably continue her veganism for the four months she's there so she's going to slowly wean herself back onto meat after being vegan for six years. She was wondering if anyone there had any tips for her? It's kinda like asking a priest for sex tips but hey, maybe someone there might know so it's not ENTIRELY unreasonable.

Well, that's pretty much what she got back in the form of incredibly literate kari_louise:

get out of this community if you want help not being vegan. why dont you try asking for hep being vegan in a foreign country before decisiong to throw away 6 years. everything youve stood for and worked so hard for 6 years is going to be crap now, everyone will cal you a hypocrite and if you ever go back to vegan people wi just augh at you "sure just another phase". read vegan freak it might help you.

Oh, she's pretty special, this one. Even the other vegans are going "Bzuh?!" at the rage involved. Obviously they just don't get what a TRUE vegan kari_louise is.

Of course, other people urge her to not give up her vegan ways. vanityisdeath went to México! Of course, he went to a city rather than a farm. He says:

Mexican people are some of the most considerate I have ever met. If you kindly explain to them (before they prepare you a meal) your dietary needs I'm sure they will cater to you. (bold mine).

Yeah, maybe you might want them to polish your floors for you too, hombré?

A little further down the thread, kari_louise wins the Supreme Stupid award by calling an Orthodox Jewish woman "Hitler". But she doesn't stop there. It's time for a flounce and a reminder to all of the community rules!

kari_louise: can i remind the community for who and what this is for?

What. This journal is intended to be a supportive community for vegans and those who wish to become vegan. As the community progresses we hope to make an informative, comprehensive journal as well as encourage discussions on veganism and animal rights. We support the fight for animal liberation and abolishing all forms of animal exploitation through protests, boycotts, civil disobedience and non-violent direct action (taking into account that you cannot inflict acts of violence against property and other material items).

Who. We welcome all types of vegans: animal-rights oriented, health-oriented, etc.

why was this post even allowed? i dont see where this says its supportive for people who want to stop being vegan.

(bolding hers)

But everyone tells her to STFU, which is wholly satisfying to read.

Of course, if in moral doubt, reference Star Trek:

gsyh: In Star Trek, the Vulcans are vegetarians, but, they do know how to hunt and gather and during their survival trips they eat stuff like lizards that they found. Their reasoning is that if they could easily avoid causing any harm even to non-sentient beings in their daily life they should as it is the logical thing to do. If the consumption of animal life is necessary for survival, then it will be illogical to feel guilty over it because the lions gotta do what the lions gotta do to survive.

Makes me wonder whether they eat replicated meat since it's molecularly the same but nothing died...

... OKAY! Don't let Faux Klingons send REAL Americans to war, people! Or should that be... don't let Real Starfleet Officers and Vulcans eat Faux Chickens? Anyhoo, moving on!

This whole scuffle is taken to stupid_free and that's where it develops and grows, like a fine ~~wine~~ vinegar. It's vegan bashing time! Amusing macro time, too!

It's at this point that entelodont (that username makes me think "Entelo-DO!") links to a seperate, equally "WTF?!" inducing wank on veganpeople where sophia_corvino asks:

Ok -- question:

Birth control or no birth control pill? There are numerous bad ingredients in the pill and its most likely tested on animals. I'm on it right now for regulation and for the obvious -- but I need some advice in deciding to continue it.

Also -- what about prescription drugs? If its for something not-so-serious, do you take them?

Enter our next wanker - willfishguy! - who believes in the POWER of VEGETABLES! He seems to also have missed that wank about English Majors (All eleventy hundred of them) and that putting "As a..." at the beginning of something doesn't mean shit.

willfishguy: As a male, I sometimes like to express my opinion in regard to the birth control pills. I'm on the 'never ever take that garbage' side, but I usually dig myself into a hole when I do express it.

... What, NO, REALLY?! I don't believe it! A wordsmith and paragon of sensitivity such as yourself must be convincing hundreds of women that BCPs are wrong and evil! As a female, I sometimes like to express my opinion that half-witted grunts like yourself should mind your own friggin' business, but I'm wanking on myself here. The real jewel of this kerfuffle is when willfishguy (am I the only one reading that as 'willful selfish'?) responds to a poster's comment that she absolutely *has* to take her asthma medication. Or she'll, you know, *die*.

willfishguy: Asthma can be cured in thirty days. By first removing specific foods, then by taking daily doses of MSM and most importantly learning to beathe [sic] properly.

There is no internet slang, no meme, no macro nor funny little ASCII art piece that can properly express my absolute and utter FLABBERGASTEDNESS at that comment. See, I had to resort to ~~made up shit~~ using fictional words, I'm so full of :O

I leave you with that, my fine wankas.

ETA: Edited cause my brain failed and so did my grammar.

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	blackjackrocket 2007-04-30 06:27 am UTC (link)
	Not much into Trek (save for Q. Q is awesome), but wouldn't plants count as non-sentient beings? Or am I reading too much into it? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	ayezur 2007-04-30 08:38 am UTC (link)
	Plants are neither sentient nor sapient, but they are alive. (I think; sixth grade bio was a long time ago). Star Trek tends to confuse the three on a regular basis. So no, you're not eating anything that can think or is remotely self aware when you have a delicious spinach pie. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ghostmaster 2007-04-30 02:38 pm UTC (link)
	Actually, didn't someone prove somewhere that plants do have a kind of awareness? I distinctly recall reading something where a guy hooked one up to a lie detector so they could see it reacting. I might be thinking of a novel, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ayezur
2007-04-30 02:52 pm UTC (link)

Plants have been shown to respond to outside stimulus, but I think you need more to be counted as sentient. Internet seems to indicate that while many, many, many New Agey alternate-science types believe in the sentience of plants, the scientific community still does not have enough evidence. Most of what plants respond to are sounds (though some species respond to light, like sunflowers), so all we can prove from that is that they can detect sound waves.

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	ecchaniz0r 2007-04-30 04:21 pm UTC (link)
	Willow trees do a cool thing where if one is being et by bugs, it releases a pheromone that stmulates other trees in the area to produce a chemical that makes them unpalatable to the bugs. That's - just really groovy, though, and I don't figure it's a sign of anything? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	queencallipygos 2007-04-30 06:11 pm UTC (link)
	The Mythbusters did a test on that! It was kind of...inconclusive. (They did hook a ficus up to a lie detector, and they did get reactions when one of them whapped the leaves, but when they went into the next room and one guy just THOUGHT about whapping the leaves, nothing happened. I think they were a little unclear what to make of their results.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ghostmaster 2007-04-30 08:48 pm UTC (link)
	Um, this surprised them? Was the myth that plants are telepathic or something? I find it amusing that they expected results from just thinking about it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

queencallipygos
2007-04-30 08:57 pm UTC (link)

I was going to look up the links when I posted that:

They were testing a theory of primary perception in plants, which did indeed suggest that some telepathic ability is possible in plants. Their own experiments were at first copies of the original experiment, which used a lie detector; but the results were inconclusive (about a third of the time they got a result, but didn't the other two-thirds), so they moved to a more sensitive machine that ultimately busted the myth.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	footsie 2007-04-30 04:26 pm UTC (link)
	"Star Trek tends to confuse the three on a regular basis." 'swhy I prefer Farscape. (Which does have sentient plants.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	puipui 2007-04-30 06:22 pm UTC (link)
	Doctor Who has megalomaniacal sentient potted cactii with nifty pseudo-scientific superpowers! To be fair, though, we only actually saw one of them on screen, although, IIRC, the existence of more was implied. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Best phrase ever jabberwockypie 2007-05-02 02:01 pm UTC (link)
	megalomaniacal sentient potted cactii I want a megalomaniacal sentient potted cactus! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	littleshebear 2007-05-01 01:06 am UTC (link)
	Q is awesome That he is. [/gratuitous icon comment] (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	blackjackrocket 2007-05-01 05:43 am UTC (link)
	snicker (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	edana_ni_emer 2007-05-01 03:49 pm UTC (link)
	giggle The way Picard pulled up that blanket, you could almost hear the maidenly 'Eeek!' And then the death-grip on it afterwards... hee! loves on Picard/Q (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Sentience
(Anonymous)
2007-05-12 11:34 pm UTC (link)

Based mostly on TNG, Data's case for refusing disassembly so people can study him, and the Terraformer's case on that planet with the shiny lights:

Sentience is, intelligence and awareness combined. The ship is intelligent, but the ship isn't aware? Data is intelligent, he was aware of where he was during the trial, he's aware of who he is, he's aware of other people, and he's aware of what the things he knows about means, therefore, Data is sentient, even though he's inorganic. Same goes for the shiny lights in the Terraformer episode, can't remember their name...Microbrains? They called the humanoids, 'ugly bags of mostly water'. The microbrains aren't made of meat, but they are sentient.

Star Trek really made things interesting. For example, animals are persons, but animals aren't /things/, rocks don't feel (except for Hortas!) In Star Trek, beings, that, following my high school biology textbook definition of living things, aren't alive, are sentient.

Whereas, creatures that are alive, aren't necessary sentient. On earth, real world today, as far as we know, and care to admit and extend the definition to, only we humans are sentient beings, though the primates and whales and dolphins are close. An animal, a living thing made of meat, if it's only driven by instincts, if it's not intelligent and not aware, then it's definitely not sentient. (I think Futurama pokes fun at this a bit, though it was also slamming Star Trek and other sci-fi that thought that humans would still be the big bad when we encounter other species. In Futurama, human meat is sold in the universe because there are those who don't consider the humans to be intelligent enough, and Fry certainly didn't make a good case of that.)

I made the point that, Vulcans reasons that, though non-sentient animals aren't equal to them, because they still can feel pain, it will be logical, not to cause them pain, not to end their lives, if it's unnecessary. Though following their logic, if they need to eat the animal to stay alive, then they would, if the animal in question is non-sentient.

For the record, I like the Vulcans of the original Trek, my favourite Trek because it was the most progressive before its company's claim of progressiveness was just, ENTIRELY phony. I like the Vulcan attitude towards their diet and emotions, they practice its restrain, but they don't push it onto other people (except for that one time where an emotional group was kicked out, but I think that had to do with the forced mind meld cult thing).

I myself include meat in my diet, because my blood isn't green, I need those B-12, but I do believe in animal welfare.

- ZombieBorg

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