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Lizbeth Marcs ([info]liz_marcs) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2007-06-16 12:23:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:*sporfle!*

Massachusetts Brings the Wank...
Or rather, people from Tennessee bring the wank to Massachusetts via the magic of teh Internets.

Oh, joy.

On Thursday, the Massachusetts state Legislature killed a proposed ballot initiative that would amend the state constitution to define marriage as an institution between one man and one woman by a vote of 45 (for the ballot initiative) to 151 (against the ballot initiative). Since Massachusetts is the only state in the U.S. that performs and recognizes same-sex marriage, the vote means that the status quo is safe until at least 2012 (which is the earliest that opponents of same-sex marriage could possibly get the question to the ballot).

[I won't get into the process of explaining how the state constitution is amended here, since it is a little on the complicated side. Suffice to say that there was an election last year where not one supporter of SSM marriage was voted out of office, but more than one opponent of SSM marriage was. Enough opponents were voted out in general elections that the end result was Thursday's vote.]

Most of the folks (with one or two exceptions) on the b0st0n community are pleased with the result. The discussion is not terribly wanky, and what disagreement there is remains somewhat polite between opposing parties.

And that, most people thought, would be the end of that.

Enter blisspath, who has taken it upon himself/herself to inform the b0st0n community that those darn liberals of Massachusetts are...well, I'm not sure, really.

Hypocrite shows up in the tl;dr rant. So does "voter disenfranchisement" (ummmm, did he/she miss the part where pro-SSM legislators were kept in office or voted into office in 2006, while anti-SSM legislators were voted out?).

And also, don't ask me how, the Massachusetts Legislature is somehow guilty of squashing the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (hunh?).

Best part of all?

blisspath is from Tennessee.

Cue response from the b0st0n community: "WtF? Who asked you?"

People point out that in a representative democracy, the voters don't get to decide every little thing by popular vote. Other people pointed out that the state followed the legal constitutional procedure, so the day was won fair and square. Other people point out that the anti-SSM side lost despite some dirty pool to collect signatures from voters, so stop throwing around accusations against the pro-SSM side. And, of course, some angry religion wank.

Overall, not terribly wanky in and of itself, until this post, wherein blisspath announces that he/she is not sticking around to continue the argument (probably because the locals keep beating he/she with clue sticks).

Instead, he/she will zoom off to annoy people on the LJ New Jersey community by telling them how they should govern themselves from his/her home in Tennessee.

Be sure to check out this accusation that the OP deleted responses.

Tiny, but tasty political wank...although probably more amusing if you actually live in Massachusetts.

ETA: For a real sporfling good time, check out this wanky brawl over on honestyisabitch where both sides go at it hammer and tongs in more tl;dr posts than you've ever seen in your life. So much for anomie666 and anyone else trying to be reasonable about SSM. Be careful not to drown in the splooge. (thanks [info]zyna_kat!)

Also, it appears our Tennessee crusader is taking his/her crusade to other LJ comms.



(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 07:49 pm UTC (link)
Oops, didn't read down before I commented above. *heh* But reiterating...

Except that, of course, it doesn't.

I do not understand why this concept is so hard to grasp. Legalizing gay marriage =/= infringing on rights and freedoms, it's GRANTING THEM. Straight couples WILL STILL BE ALLOWED TO MARRY. It's not like letting the queers have rights will change that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]puipui
2007-06-16 08:08 pm UTC (link)
No no no! It's a threat to their marriages! It's totally undermining the very concept in a way that drive-through Vegas marriages never have and never will! If everyone can do it, it makes straight people less specialer! IT'S A THREAT, DAMMIT, CAN'T YOU SEE IT?

In fact, I'm threatening several marriages right now. Go me!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kadath
2007-06-16 09:15 pm UTC (link)
In fact, I'm threatening several marriages right now. Go me!

*leer*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 09:23 pm UTC (link)
AWAY, MARRIAGE-THREATENING STRUMPET! Away with your logic and sarcasm!!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]onaga
2007-06-16 10:51 pm UTC (link)
Yup, my dad's wedding band burst into flames when he walked past the house on our block with the lesbian couple. It was only quick thinking and the fact that he carries a vial of holy water on him at all times that saved his hand.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

GIP
[info]bigbigtruck
2007-06-18 04:21 pm UTC (link)
.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]chikane
2007-06-16 08:39 pm UTC (link)
I think it is because, somehow, other people being equal makes one less speciul, and that is horrible horrible pain and oppression.
Also because homosexuality = pedophilia, as other wanks has proven us, so *insert slippery slope argument*

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I didn't really think of that. "But... but... marriage is OURS, WHINE WHINE WHINE". Except they don't need to actually call it marriage if folks are so goddamn picky about one word, but still...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]chikane
2007-06-16 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it's not as if ZE EVIL GAYZ are trying to make their lavender stormtroopers storm into churches, forcing the priests at gunpoint to declare them man and man/wife and wife.

It's the legal stuff we're after. Pretty ceremonies can be held at other places anyway.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 10:06 pm UTC (link)
It's the legal stuff we're after. Pretty ceremonies can be held at other places anyway.

Exactly. I've tried explaining this to anti-gay marriage people, but they DO NOT GET IT. They're all "MARRIDJ IS GONNA BE DESTROYED OH SHI-" without stopping to acknowledge that no, gay folks are NOT in fact, as you so awesomely put it, trying to make the lavender stormtroopers storm into churches and force them to perform unions they don't wish to. Let marriage remain the religious institution if they insist it must, but those fuckers need to stop arguing that granting legal rights is SPESHIL RIGHTS AND WILL DESTROY US OMG.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]chikane
2007-06-16 10:23 pm UTC (link)
I'm quite happy to live in a nation where the crazies aren't that ...popular.
I mean, we got the "gay marriages shouldn't be equal!" people too, but they are much, much more calm about it. It's kinda hard to be all tough against those civil unions when the political ally is led by an openly homosexual ^^;

Thus we have civil unions(not completely equal, but on the way there...), and it's possible to adopt children, too.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Thus we have civil unions(not completely equal, but on the way there...), and it's possible to adopt children, too.

I'm glad at least some countries have sense. I hope the U.S. starts going in that direction, but I'm not holding my breath. Here we have the loud voices screaming about how gay couples should have no rights at all. I think in some states in the U.S. it is legal for gay couples to adopt children, but there are many people against it. They try to claim that it's psychologically damaging to children to not be raised by a man/woman couple- pointedly ignoring the large number of single parents in the nation and the fact that heterosexual couples can be shitty parents.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]squib
2007-06-17 12:37 am UTC (link)
They try to claim that it's psychologically damaging to children to not be raised by a man/woman couple- pointedly ignoring the large number of single parents in the nation and the fact that heterosexual couples can be shitty parents.

And the incredibly large and growing body of evidence that it's NOT damaging. (I write scientific abstracts for a living, and I've seen at least 3 large studies with that conclusion come across my desk-- and I'm not specifically looking for it. I'm sure any comprehensive database search would turn up a whole lot more.)

There's also the interesting article that was in the Washington Post shortly after Falwell's death about the changing attitudes of Evangelicals. It seems that even amongst the most stalwartly anti-gay denominations, younger adherents are markedly more tolerant of gays and lesbians than are their parents. So I think we'll get there. It'll take way the hell longer than it should, but these people are on the wrong side of both history *and* science.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]harrylovesron, 2007-06-17 01:23 am UTC

[info]chikane
2007-06-17 07:04 am UTC (link)
The fun fact is that the only reason it is more damaging is homophobia -
"What, your parents are STRRANGE? EWWWW! LOOK THATS THE ONE WITH TWO STRANGE PARENTS!"

And that's not really changing much, for bullies always find something to bully for.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dragonfangirl
2007-06-17 10:14 am UTC (link)
Because, you know, it's not all that difficult to find a church that will perform same-sex marriages. Plenty of ministers are willing to. Any Unitarian minister will do it, AFAIK, and lots of Episcopalian ministers as well. And those are just the two protestant sects I know anything about.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]antimatterspork
2007-06-17 06:46 pm UTC (link)
I don't even think that Unitarians count as protestant anymore. We've gotten rid of dogma, and I think less than half of our congregation even believes Jesus existed at all.

Also, our minister is practically a Buddhist.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]melusina
2007-06-17 07:59 pm UTC (link)
"Practically Buddhist" describes a lot of Unitarians these days, I find.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]drhenryjekyll, 2007-06-20 04:02 pm UTC

[info]rimrunner
2007-07-02 06:15 pm UTC (link)
You'd have a pretty hard time finding a Pagan minister(*) who WON'T do it...






* yes they do exist

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]spacelogic
2007-06-16 11:02 pm UTC (link)
Respectfully disagree. The word "marriage" is important -- it's got psychological benefits that can't be replaced without social reprogramming. I'll be sore if I can only get a civil union or domestic partnership, even if it's legally identical, because it doesn't feel as committed. I'd support marriage being the religious ceremony and some other word being used for legal unions if it applied to all couples, but I'm damned if separate but equal will make me happy.

Sorry, I think I got serious business on the thread. I'll clean up, shall I?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 11:28 pm UTC (link)
But I wasn't saying "separate but equal" was good enough- I do agree with you. I'm just saying that folks get up in arms about the term "gay marriage" without realizing that it's got sod-all to do with the legal rights aspect and focus on the "marriage" bit as DESTROYING THE GOD-GIVEN INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE FROTH RAR.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]qem_chibati
2007-06-17 12:12 am UTC (link)
And most of the time, the civil union or domestic partnership is not legally identical, so as far as I'm concerned that argument is really misleading.

>I'd support marriage being the religious ceremony and some other word being used for legal unions if it applied to all couples.

Ditto. But the thing is marriage didn't start off as a religious term, and while many religious organisations hold it to the point of sacrament, (i.e one of the big 7 things you can do as part of that religion) they don't necessarily treat it that way with outsiders and yo, not about religion, it's about legal issues, and religious and legal marriage are already treated as separate things.

*I.e It is possible to have one, the other, and both, but just because it's religious does not make it legal and vice versa.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]chibikaijuu
2007-06-17 03:22 am UTC (link)
I think that's what the person making the initial comment said - remove "marriage" from the legal terminology entirely and make *everybody* have "civil unions", because that's really what they are - social and legal contracts with each other and the government mostly about financial things like health benefits and filing joint tax returns. A religious marriage ceremony serves a different purpose (though I can see why the government allowing people to do both at the same time is good, just for efficiency's sake).

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]jat_sapphire
2007-06-16 09:16 pm UTC (link)
I think it's because there are so many OSMs that are horrifically unhappy that the cultural assumption about a married couple (especially if they're no longer young) is that they sort of tolerate each other. So they're married because being married is a special god-approved thing that makes happy babies even if in reality the couple does nothing but throw frying pans at one another. But they're OMGMARRIED!

I think it's Orson Scott Card who puts into one of his books an explicit statement that human beings cannot be fully part of their communities and thus are not fully adult until they marry, but I'm damn sure it is not just rabid Mormons who think so.

In conclusion, absolutely discriminatory, in that awful "this is MY unhappiness, dammit, you can't have any!!" way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]harrylovesron
2007-06-16 09:27 pm UTC (link)
In conclusion, absolutely discriminatory, in that awful "this is MY unhappiness, dammit, you can't have any!!" way.

That's a fair point- marriage as an institution is still a speshil heterosexual thing and we can't let them goddamn queers have it, can we? Marriage is only for producing children after all and not an affirmation of love or anything... oh wait.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]funwithrage
2007-06-18 12:25 pm UTC (link)
I think it's Orson Scott Card who puts into one of his books an explicit statement that human beings cannot be fully part of their communities and thus are not fully adult until they marry,

So Jane Austen was a dysfunctional child-woman?

Also: Jesus?

I mean, I knew the man was a twit. But seriously. Shut up, OSC. And die in a fire while you're at it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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