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dreamer_marie ([info]dreamer_marie) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2007-06-24 00:10:00


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Atheists: Like Those Mean Girls in High School, in a Way
Over at the LJ community [info]dark_christian, [info]nebris reposts an article called  An increasingly outspoken community of atheists and agnostics is getting fed up with being marginalized, ignored and insulted. It's mainly about Dawkins's and Hitchens's success with their books about atheism and how it gave a lot of Americans the guts to own up to the fact that they're atheists (apparently atheism is next to communism in the good ol' USA).

It's a direct success when [info]roseross replies, in the first comment:
Militant atheists are the only group other than the Dominionists who scare me because they are so intolerant of others' spiritual beliefs. They insult people who believe differently than they do. They insist that ALL will some day believe as they do, because they're the only people who have it right. They often feel using the government to enforce their worldview is a good idea. In short, the only way to tell the difference between a militant atheist and a Dominionist is which creed they intend all of us to adhere to. For our own good, of course.
People call her on her bovine excrement, but she insists:
Can't count the number of times I've heard militant atheists long for religion to be made illegal. After all, from their point of view, spiritual beliefs are all childish delusions and it would be doing a favor to take the purple unicorns away from the silly people who have not reached the lofty state of atheism on their own. They seem to have no idea why any of that would be insulting to others, or perhaps they just don't care since the insulted folks are just braindead religious folks in the first place.
But why wank when you can have an orgy?
 [info]bobdole asks:
The only other group? So militant atheists scare you in this regard but militant Muslims, for example, do not?
The definitions of the words creed and faith need clarification. Religious scientists get their feelings hurt. People get flashbacks of being outraged. The Constitution is invoked. And much, much more for who is willing to rake through the tl;dr and the "quote-marks."
And will somebody think of the non-Abrahamicists?


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[info]wrongly_amused
2007-06-24 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Alright, fair enough, Dawkins and Hitchens are in different classe.

Stephen Dawkins makes fair points about the treatment of atheism in regards to the social perception of morality, and I fully back the push for increased secularism in federal process. However, at times, I really do get the feeling that he falls into this logical fallacy that humanity is somehow better off with religion. The problem isn't religion, it's people. Erase the history of Catholicism, Islam, etc. and humanity will still be its awful mishmash of cruelties and kindness.


I've never seen or read Dawkins insulting or being obnoxious to anybody in a debate or in his work.

The first time I ever saw Dawkins live, he went onto the Colbert Report and made a statement at one point that roughly went as, "...and there are still people out there stupid enough to believe in God/gods/whatev." That is not a statement that generally endears you to somebody.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]influencethis
2007-06-24 11:03 pm UTC (link)
And he did this talking to Colbert? Way to choose your audience wrong. Colbert still teaches CCD classes and does the dances he makes up for them on national television.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]wrongly_amused
2007-06-24 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Ah, no, see my post below. My error.

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[info]seiberwing
2007-06-26 05:08 pm UTC (link)
The dance was awesome.

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[info]innsmouth_eyes
2007-06-24 11:10 pm UTC (link)
Did he actually say "stupid" or did he just say that it was rediculous or something? Because I don't think I've ever heard him use that word ever.

Hitchens is a major asshole, though, and I love him too. He's totally obnoxious, I'll admit, and drunk most of the time, but I can't really argue with his points. I don't think he's actually trying to be endearing to anybody though.

>>The problem isn't religion, it's people.

The problem is people, but I think that religion is very special in that it gives otherwise good people the permission to do very very bad things, and is very very hard to argue against because it's handed down from divine authority. Any kind of dogma is bad for you, but there have been relatively few non-religious dogmas and so it's religion that's getting the flack right now.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]wrongly_amused
2007-06-24 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Did he actually say "stupid" or did he just say that it was rediculous or something? Because I don't think I've ever heard him use that word ever.

Y'know what? I finally unearthed the clip, and I retract my statement. He did use the word stupid, but he was using it in reference to misconceptions regarding Darwinism and Creationism. That was my mistake and poor recollection on my part. He handled that interview very gracefully. There are still parts of his theses I don't entirely agree with, but I think my position on the matter's been colored a bit by the juxtaposition with Hitchens. Perhaps this is a case for some reviewing on my part.


Hitchens is a major asshole, though, and I love him too. He's totally obnoxious, I'll admit, and drunk most of the time, but I can't really argue with his points. I don't think he's actually trying to be endearing to anybody though.

Now him I'm not budging on. Hitchens occasionally has a good point, but way too often I'm turned off by his increasingly vitriolic behavior. Outside of that, he's misogynist BS generally doesn't endear him to me.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]innsmouth_eyes
2007-06-24 11:46 pm UTC (link)
Misogynist? Really? I'd be interested to know more about that. In his recent book he says a lot about what he calls religious fear of femininity and how women have been oppressed by most religious traditions, so I thought of him as more progressive that way.

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[info]wrongly_amused
2007-06-24 11:55 pm UTC (link)
There are little things here or there that annoy me about him, but it was more or less this article that more or less incurred my feminist wrath.

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[info]innsmouth_eyes
2007-06-25 12:05 am UTC (link)
I remember that from somewhere, and I don't agree fully but I didn't find it misogynistic. Just a bit too clinical, which is at odds with the subject matter.

Men will laugh at almost anything, often precisely because it is—or they are—extremely stupid. Women aren't like that.

That, however, is a great line.

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[info]wrongly_amused
2007-06-25 12:21 am UTC (link)
I really don't want to get into a major debate about it, since everyone's fair to have their interpretation, but this article sums up a lot of way the article irritated me.

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[info]greenling
2007-06-25 02:24 am UTC (link)
He concludes that it is because men are funny and women aren’t, not even pausing to consider that there might be some social constructs at play here. Excellent; if he’s this stupid, I don’t even have to bother to get offended, and everyone wins.

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