Log In

Home
    - Create Journal
    - Update
    - Download

LiveJournal
    - News
    - Paid Accounts
    - Contributors

Customize
    - Customize Journal
    - Create Style
    - Edit Style

Find Users
    - Random!
    - By Region
    - By Interest
    - Search

Edit ...
    - Personal Info &
      Settings
    - Your Friends
    - Old Entries
    - Your Pictures
    - Your Password

Developer Area

Need Help?
    - Lost Password?
    - Freq. Asked
      Questions
    - Support Area



Cleolinda Jones ([info]cleolinda) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2007-07-03 09:12:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Are you perhaps a Vogon?
John Scalzi (maker of Schadenfreude pies, taper of bacon to cats) and a user named Quatloo go mano-a-mano over adding noted sci-fi/horror/fantasy author Fred Saberhagen's recent death (RIP) to Saberhagen's Wikipedia entry. Scalzi's sources are Harlan Ellison and the Science Fiction Writer's Association of America website; Quatloo does not accept these as reliable Wikipedia sources according to The Most Holy WP:RS. Wank ensues:
Do what you want, Quatloo. Oddly enough, Saberhagen remains dead despite your refusal to allow Wikipedia to acknowledge it, and if you don't think Harlan Ellison is sufficiently reliable source in this particular case, you're a goddamned fool. Scalzi

A reliable source is required. Surely if someone as eminent as Saberhagen has died, a reliable source could be located. Ellison may be mistaken; he is not a reliable source by any definition. Quatloo 02:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, for God's sake. He was called by a personal friend of the Saberhagens with the news, a personal friend who is also well known in fannish circles. Your own apparently inability to grasp who is a reliable source in this case is no reason for Wikipedia not to carry accurate information. Scalzi

A "who" can never be a reliable source. Please read WP:RS. Quatloo 03:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Quatloo, do you bottle your own "pointlessly officious" juice or do you have someone else bottle it for you? Harlan Ellison, aside from being one of the most notable names in history of science fiction, says that Fred Saberhagen, his personal friend, has died. He in turn has gotten this information from someone whom the Saberhagens themselves have asked to pass along the information. Just out of curiosity, from whom do you think what you would qualify as a "reliable source" will get its information? If the Wikipedia set-up doesn't recognize these sources as reliable, it's an idiotic set-up. And as I've noted before, when we discover that Saberhagen has been dead all this time, and you've been the one holding up the informaton because you can't grasp who qualifies as a reliable source, you're going to look like a fool. Scalzi

A published source, like, oh, a newspaper. Not a person, not a blog, not a message forum. I had suggested you read WP:RS, which tells you what qualifies as a reliable source in Wikipedia. Apparently you still have not. I know exactly what qualifies as a reliable source. You have demonstrated repeately that you do not. Quatloo 03:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

That is but a fraction of the entire exchange, because Quatloo is a rule-enforcing machine, baby! In fact, he may actually be a machine, I don't know; he's certainly programmed with an astonishing number of ways to repeat NO NOT A SOURCE READ THE RULES, even in the face of other users weighing in:
Locus Magazine is a reliable and primary source, end of story. please use judgment, not maniacal skepticism, when considering the merit of sources. Note that publishing something does not change its reliability, nor citability. --Buridan 10:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

His argument is carried over from the time prior to Locus Magazine publishing the information in question. He wanted to know if Harlan Ellison (the physical person by himself) can be used as a source for Wikipedia, and the answer is of course, no. If a primary source is used at all, it can only be used for first-person information, and only in limited cases at that. Harlan Ellison The Individual cannot be used as a source for the death of Fred Saberhagan. Quatloo 11:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually harlan ellison was fine too, published on his blog or website, or even in personal communication, so long as it is publishable and verifiable. --Buridan 11:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

False. See WP:RS and WP:Verifiability. Quatloo 11:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

True, see wp:rs and wp:Verifiability. --Buridan 12:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

My personal favorite part:
Quatloo, you are clearly not qualified to decide who is reliable. Are you perhaps a Vogon? (Kevin Marks 08:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC))

As of this writing, by the way, it's still going.

P.S. I should note, by the way, that I came across this when Scalzi took it to the streets to his blog in hopes that "by noting his death here, at the site of a best-selling, Campbell-winning, two-time Hugo nominated science fiction author, possibly there it has been now sufficiently documented that it'll pass inspection by the Wikipedia Officious Prick Brigade."


(Post a new comment)


[info]kumquat_of_doom
2007-07-03 02:25 pm UTC (link)
Oh, Wikipedia wank. I always find it sort of endearing, really. Nice choice of quotes, by the way, OP.

(Reply to this)


[info]llama_treats
2007-07-03 02:31 pm UTC (link)
This is why there needs to be a way to bury people electronically.

Only not so much.

(Reply to this)


[info]sashenka
2007-07-03 02:36 pm UTC (link)
Taken out of context, this holds true about Ellison:
he is not a reliable source by any definition.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-07-03 02:38 pm UTC (link)
I like how the WP:RS says RIGHT AT THE TOP: "This page is considered a content guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception."

And when someone points out that WP:RS is just a guideline, not policy, Quatloo falls back on WP:Verifiability, and says that because he challenged the death (!!), Scalzi now has to provide a verifiable source.

What a prick.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]cleolinda
2007-07-03 02:43 pm UTC (link)
I liked how someone brought that up and was all HOW NOW BROWN COW and he just defaulted to his failsafe programming of NOT RELIABLE DOES NOT COMPUTE.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

I could not not icon that. - [info]smo, 2007-07-03 08:19 pm UTC
Re: I could not not icon that. - [info]cleolinda, 2007-07-03 09:45 pm UTC

[info]dreamer_marie
2007-07-03 02:44 pm UTC (link)
In the next episode: Scalzi accidentally shuts Quatloo up in a bathroom with a troll and saves him. In turn, Quatloo lies to Wikipedia to save Scalzi from expulsion. Will they be friends in the end?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Stone philosophy
[info]goblin
2007-07-03 03:05 pm UTC (link)
To this day I don't know why er, Quatloo felt the need to lie about why uh, Scalzi was in the bathroom. Isn't "Scalzi rushed in here to save me" a valid excuse? Why lie and pretend Quatloo was looking for trouble, when in fact no one in the bathroom had done anything wrong?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Stone philosophy - [info]dreamer_marie, 2007-07-03 03:30 pm UTC
Re: Stoned philosophy - [info]goblin, 2007-07-03 03:34 pm UTC
Re: Stoned philosophy - [info]dreamer_marie, 2007-07-03 03:52 pm UTC
Re: Stone philosophy - [info]frenzy, 2007-07-03 09:58 pm UTC

[info]kadath
2007-07-03 03:24 pm UTC (link)
There is no one more pedantic than the Wikipedia Police. It's where you end up when even the Slashdot crowd thinks you should relax.

(Reply to this)


[info]pantyless_angel
2007-07-03 03:33 pm UTC (link)
I got nothing, you lost me as soon as I clicked the bacon cat link.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2007-07-03 04:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-03 07:46 pm UTC

[info]tehrin
2007-07-03 03:34 pm UTC (link)
I read "Vogon" as "Virgin." What's wrong with me?

I'm on the side of the man with the tasty pies!

(Reply to this)


[info]mindset
2007-07-03 03:50 pm UTC (link)
Wikipedia! The encyclopedia that anyone can edit! And that any officious puffed-up interfering idiot with no authority or qualifications can get stick-up-his-ass wanky about!

(Reply to this)


[info]electric_sheep
2007-07-03 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Let's not miss out on the wank at his blog as Scalzi grades the comeback from a Guardian blogger who failed to impress with his post about the wikipediatubes ruining writers.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2007-07-03 05:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hallidae, 2007-07-03 06:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hickorydickory, 2007-07-03 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-03 07:45 pm UTC

[info]phosfate
2007-07-03 03:53 pm UTC (link)
I once knew a woman who told me that Alastair Cook had died (he hadn't at the time), and wasn't it terrible? I said that I hadn't heard any mention of this on the news. She insisted that it had to be true because she read it in Bjo Trimble's newsletter, and Bjo was the mother of fandom and source of all that is good and true in the world. Poor dead guy was actually a British DJ with a similar name.

Mr Quatloo is a douche, but I wouldn't consider Harlan Ellison a reliable source, either.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2007-07-03 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2007-07-03 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-03 07:58 pm UTC

[info]pfeffermuse
2007-07-03 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Should I be amused that Quatloo respects Ellison enough to use a handle that Ellison used as a character name, but doesn't respect Ellison enough as a reliable source?

Oh, Wikipedia, never stop being you.

(Reply to this)


[info]luckdragonfujur
2007-07-03 05:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm tempted to ask if the skepticism derived from Saberhagen's death report including a draft horse.

Clearly, F_W & derivates have made me a heartless, evil person. D:

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ashenmote, 2007-07-03 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady7jane, 2007-07-04 12:14 pm UTC
This may be as good a place as any. - [info]lurker32, 2007-07-04 08:09 pm UTC

[info]saralina25
2007-07-03 06:44 pm UTC (link)
I was just looking at the Schadenfreude pie yesterday and decided that I have to make it for the Potterdammerung.

Wikipedia wank is like fish in a barrel with a cannon ball, but there's so much pretentious knowing the history of wikipedia on both sides.

(Reply to this)


[info]frequentmouse
2007-07-03 07:11 pm UTC (link)
What is wonderous about Wikipedians, in this context, is how fiercely they keep fighting the same war with the same people over the same criteria: notability and reliability in the print SF world. One of the sources Quatloo is resisting is the SFWA site. They have, in the past, rejected edits from TNH about books she's edited, and PNH about the SF publishing business, saying they're unsourced.

Primary sources in the other-than-scientific-journal print world pretty much all come down to "personal communication" citations; Wikipedia is apparently trying to apply standards appropriate to one sort of information across the board.

Also, I now have a SGA bunny for sale, involving McKay in a Wikiedit War.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wrenlet, 2007-07-03 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2007-07-03 10:22 pm UTC
::has died laughing:: - [info]goblin, 2007-07-04 01:18 am UTC
Re: ::has died laughing:: - [info]frequentmouse, 2007-07-04 03:00 am UTC
Re: ::has died laughing:: - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-07-05 05:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-07-06 10:51 am UTC

[info]smo
2007-07-03 07:44 pm UTC (link)
My love for this wank is like a rock.
I wonder, would it like some making fuck?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]makeshyft, 2007-07-03 07:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-03 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]katarin, 2007-07-04 09:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-05 06:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]catslash, 2007-07-05 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-05 06:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]catslash, 2007-07-05 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2007-07-05 08:07 pm UTC

verthandi
2007-07-03 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Wait, Saberhagen's dead? I was just debating whether or not to pick up a book of his, but then settled on Wodehouse instead. Is he even worth reading?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - verthandi, 2007-07-03 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2007-07-04 08:46 am UTC
(no subject) - verthandi, 2007-07-04 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2007-07-05 03:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-07-03 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]a_partridge, 2007-07-03 11:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2007-07-03 11:25 pm UTC

[info]fevered_ego
2007-07-03 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Oh dear. He's been killed by a draft horse. Not just any draft horse, either. A first-draft horse. You can tell by all the edits and confusion.

(Reply to this)


[info]demonbean
2007-07-03 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Quatloo, do you bottle your own "pointlessly officious" juice or do you have someone else bottle it for you?

Oooh, burn. And by "burn" I mean "lose."

Which is sad, because he was otherwise winning.

(Reply to this)


[info]perletwo
2007-07-04 02:24 am UTC (link)
Okay, I've spent too much time writing newspaper obits not to agree reflexively with Quatloo - we define reliable source as someone who can produce a death certificate on demand, i.e. a hospital or funeral home, or family member authorized to act in the family's name and produce a DC. Yes, we have had (rare) recorded instances of someone trying to slip a fraudulent death notice in the paper, and fights between relations trying to edit the obit's content without authorization. Obits - it's not just a job, it's an adventure!

Trouble is, something in Quatloo's officiousness makes me want to say "You! Get off my side!" and something in Scalzi's spittle-flecked overreaction makes me want to say "You! Get back on my side!"

I think I'm kinda inclined to declare them both full of FAIL, IMO, simply for having the smackdown in the first place.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2007-07-04 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dhole, 2007-07-04 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]perletwo, 2007-07-04 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2007-07-04 04:14 pm UTC

[info]fourthage
2007-07-04 03:07 am UTC (link)
You know, I merely like Scalzi's novels, but I *love* his online self. The only other people I know who cut so efficiently to the core of stupidity are the Nielsen Haydens. His article on why idolizing the Confederacy is dumb is still one of my favorite things ever.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sewingmyfish, 2007-07-04 03:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fourthage, 2007-07-04 05:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fourthage, 2007-07-04 05:16 am UTC

[info]mindset
2007-07-04 05:58 am UTC (link)
Oh, and could today's XKCD be any more perfect?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2007-07-04 08:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]perletwo, 2007-07-04 03:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]influencethis, 2007-07-04 07:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karmyn75, 2007-07-04 08:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2007-07-05 05:45 am UTC

[info]frequentmouse
2007-07-05 08:52 pm UTC (link)
In the interest of completeness, Hexrei wikimurders John Scalzi.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2007-07-06 07:22 am UTC

 
   
Privacy Policy - COPPA
Legal Disclaimer - Site Map