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The Vulva Superstar PC Revue
bellasmommy links to a vaginapagina mod post about whether or not everyone who owns a vagina isn't grossly butthurt when it's implied that zhe is a woman.

stupid_free disagrees. For 700 comments, and counting....

Choice bits:

jack_jackrum: Some people who have vaginas are not women, ladies, or girls. I don't see how this is hard to understand. Have you been under a rock for the last 50 years?
freezer818: Seems like overdramatic, oversensitive hair-splitting that will cause more drama than it's meant to prevent. But what do I know, I'm just a lowly man. *crawls back under rock*

pettythiefIn the example the poster gives (paraphrasing) "recommend that women get pap-tests", how do you re-write that sentence so as not to offend people who have a cervix but don't call themselves 'a woman'? Can it be done? What are you supposed to say? "People with a cervix"? "Vagina-sapiens"? Is it fair of the cisgendered people to expect everyone to perform lexical gymnastics when they represent a tiny proportion of the populace? Unless of course there's a disproportionate number in that community, in which case it's a whole different ball-game.

...and, with that, I think I've burned out, since this whole post makes my head ache. Let's pick a pronoun and go with it.

The real problem is with a safe space that's so safe you're not allowed to say anything at all.

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	freezer 2007-08-04 02:49 pm UTC (link)
	When those issues are generally of a biological sort, it would tend to help, I would think. (Perhaps I could've phrased that more clearly, but oh well) Frankly, many of us were brought up to see "ladies" as a respectful, tone neutral form of address and it simply boggles that people are getting worked up enough about it that it merits a mod post. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	dragonfangirl 2007-08-04 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	When those issues are generally of a biological sort, it would tend to help Still not a prereq, tho. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tehrin
2007-08-04 03:57 pm UTC (link)

When those issues are generally of a biological sort, it would tend to help, I would think. (Perhaps I could've phrased that more clearly, but oh well)

So, if the issues become about ye holy pussy, you're supposed to flee in terror if your male? I thought you guys loved vaginas.

Maybe they're in gynocology. There are many explainations as to why men would join that community.

And I can see how ladies can be offensive if not every member of the community considers their gender to be female. Or if you think of what , traditionally, a lady was back in the day. But, yeah, it doesn't merit a huge bruhaha as most people mean it in a totally respectful way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tehrin 2007-08-04 04:11 pm UTC (link)
	By what a lady was back in the day, I mean someone of status, not expected to do much for a living other than go about in society and manage the household. (Reply to this)(Parent)

red_eft
2007-08-04 07:45 pm UTC (link)

Except the issue was that there were people in the community with vaginas- ie with biological issues- who did not identify as women. Hence "ladies" is excluding them, even though they may be affected by vagina-related issues.

Moreover, no one in the community it's affecting is objecting to it! There have been only a few comments, all positive, so it kind of boggles *me* that an unrelated community is getting worked up enough to have several pages of comments about how unreasonable that mod is.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

enoh
2007-08-05 12:55 am UTC (link)

When those issues are generally of a biological sort, it would tend to help, I would think.

Other people have pointed out trans people. I would like to add a few more cases.
- A considerate/concerned lover (of any gender-sex permutation).
- A parent of someone with a vagina.
- A male doctor who stopped by to see if they could be helpful.

Frankly, many of us were brought up to see "ladies" as a respectful, tone neutral form of address...

If you are looking for a new one, 'people' fills the role much better.

I don't know about other people, but for me 'ladies' conjures the image of someone walking into a room and announcing "Hey ladiez!" in that patronizing/sexist manner.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	brown_betty 2007-08-05 12:58 am UTC (link)
	Yeah. I find about a 70% overlap between people who consider "ladies" a polite form of address, and utter assholes. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	onaga 2007-08-05 12:59 am UTC (link)
	I don't know about other people, but for me 'ladies' conjures the image of someone walking into a room and announcing "Hey ladiez!" in that patronizing/sexist manner. Me too. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	deliciouschaos 2007-08-05 05:52 am UTC (link)
	I don't know about other people, but for me 'ladies' conjures the image of someone walking into a room and announcing "Hey ladiez!" in that patronizing/sexist manner. I always twitch a little when I read 'ladies' in a salutation. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Get funky. wolfie_thu 2007-08-05 06:07 am UTC (link)
	"Hey ladiez!" in that patronizing/sexist manner "Hey ladiez" always makes me think of cowbell. (Reply to this)(Parent)

oneiropolos
2007-08-05 10:16 am UTC (link)

Now, I'm a southern gal, and while I can TOTALLY see where you're coming from, I don't seem to twitch or get as upset at 'ladies' as other people here. Is it possible this is a north/south tradition difference? I have no idea where everyone in this thread is from (or even what country) so it could very well not hold up. But mere curiosity prompts me to ask. (For example, I know some women who get furious at being called "ma'am" when I was smacked upside the head when I was young if I didn't refer to people that way.)

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	hallidae 2007-08-05 02:17 pm UTC (link)
	Ma'am...Oh, man. I remember seeing Dear Abby boggle at a woman who was totally offended by the term because she didn't know that it meant "Madam" and thought it came from "Mammy". (Reply to this)(Parent)

enoh
2007-08-06 05:05 pm UTC (link)

I'm from the UK, though I imagine location would make a difference.

It depends on context, tone and speaker as well. It's fine when it's used in a historical setting. The phrase 'ladies and gentlemen' doesn't bother me either, nor generally does 'My lady' or 'Ma'am'.

In many cases however, 'ladies' just brings one of two images to mind:
- The greasy lech who says 'Hey ladies' and means 'Hey pairs of boobs who exist only to fulfill my fantasies'.
- Tupperware parties/Women's meetings, right before the leader says 'Here's how to really please your man!'.

I think it's the way it lumps those addressed into one group.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	lush_rimbaud 2007-08-06 11:08 pm UTC (link)
	It's definitely a cultural/regional difference. I'm in the Army, and just as you're supposed to address a female officer as "ma'am," you're supposed to address a group of female officers as "ladies." Being from the North, that did sound kind of quaint to me when I first joined, but now it just sounds normal. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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