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	demonbean 2007-11-20 09:42 pm UTC (link)
	I feel hopelessly dim. What is wrong with tables, especially since successful sites seem to be using them? Everyone seems so very excited about it, though ... (Reply to this)(Thread)

mcity
2007-11-20 09:48 pm UTC (link)

thread

- Sighted people aren't the only visitors to a website.
- HTML is meant to describe content, not make it look like something on a browser.
- Separation of content (HTML) and design (CSS) and behavior (Javascript) can make a site easier to update / redesign down the line.
- Keeping HTML, CSS and Javascript tiles separate improves download times by file caching. When I did my first tables to css conversion I reduced the download size from over 120kb to 30-50kb by stripping out the design formatting from the HTML. Can provide URLs of before and after pages to run speed tests on to see.

My addendum;

Also, tables rarely display properly on mobile devices, just like some Web 2.0 sites don't work right on older browsers. However, if you're doing CSS *right*, it should be easily viewable on both.

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	esclaramonde 2007-11-20 09:55 pm UTC (link)
	- Sighted people aren't the only visitors to a website. How does CSS help with this? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

whimsy_chan
2007-11-20 11:24 pm UTC (link)

I think one of the main things is that when your HTML doesn't have to describe the structure of the page as well as the content of the page, it's a lot neater and more logical. You can put your content in exactly the order it should be read in, so when a screen reader encounters it and tries to read it, it'll flow logically, just like it would for a sighted person viewing your site and using visual cues to follow the content.

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	amymccabe 2007-11-21 12:24 am UTC (link)
	Tables and the programs used to read webpages by blind and visually impaired people don't get along very well. It usually ends up in the reader voicing the information in a strange, nonsensical order. Also, they give you AIDS. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	amymccabe 2007-11-21 12:29 am UTC (link)
	Excuse me...I meant programs that read webpages TO blind and visually impaired people... Also tables make you mistype stuff (Reply to this)(Parent)

mcity
2007-11-21 05:15 am UTC (link)

Because if you use tables, the screen reader reads them out loud, and it sounds like a bunch of nonsense. Unless the blind people tell the reader to ignore the tables. Which means that on the rare occasion tables are used as they were originally intended, for tabular data, it's unintelligible because all the indications they they're listening to a table have been taken out.

Personally, I think all the people going "But it just too haaard to code with CSS!" need to adjust their mindset. I had no problem with the switch, but then again, I wouldn't try to drive a stick shift like I drive an automatic, then complain the gears are grinding.

http://www.csszengarden.com/
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css

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grrliz
2007-11-21 05:22 am UTC (link)

Personally, I think all the people going "But it just too haaard to code with CSS!" need to adjust their mindset.

Word. Everyone who wants to learn CSS but is too scared should seriously just download the Zen Garden files and play around with those a bunch of times since it's straightforward and can show you in a really powerful way just how flexible and easy CSS can be.

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	mcity 2007-11-21 05:32 am UTC (link)
	Or just look at it, for Pete's sake. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	napalmnacey 2007-11-21 07:12 am UTC (link)
	I have a terrible time learning new codes. It's taken me ten years just to memorise HTML. I suck at it. But I make pretty pictures. Ergo, my coding makes experienced web people like you cry big, wet bitter tears. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mcity 2007-11-21 03:09 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not that experienced, just a dabbler. I mean, just lookit my work. I learned CSS with copious referencing W3Schools. On the plus side, someone like you'll probably learn CSS at the same time they start beaming web pages directly into our brains. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

sneer
2007-11-20 10:55 pm UTC (link)

Also, tables have been shown to carry ebola, say rude things to little old ladies, and shoot the finger at boxes of kittens. Trufax.

It's just a silly thing to be wanking over, and an even sillier thing to be jumping around with a bullhorn going "HUR HUR HUR UR DOIN IT WRONG LOL" about. It's really not a big deal if someone wants to use tables. Google looks just fine to me, ~~warts~~ tables and all.

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	plazmah 2007-11-20 11:21 pm UTC (link)
	Tables are like that quirky older cousin you have. You idolised them when you were young, cause they were so hip and knew everything. But now you look at them and realize they're reminding you of your aunt and uncle with each passing day. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dragonfangirl 2007-11-21 10:02 am UTC (link)
	Fascinating. Tell us more. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ilpalazzo 2007-11-21 12:33 pm UTC (link)
	Whew. :) I'm okay then. My site is table-based but since it's a webcomic ain't no blind people going to be bothering with it anyway. I have sucessfully sidestepped the issue! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lurker32 2007-11-20 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	...pretty much it's an ideological thing. The code must be pure! These are the same people who pop a blood vessel if you use <b> instead of <em>. In theory not using tables as a layout thing ensures that your layout displays properly on all browsers, etc. etc., which is all very nice, but in practice only crazed purists give a damn. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lurker32 2007-11-20 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	Or even <i> instead of <em>. I always get those mixed up. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	grrliz 2007-11-21 03:38 am UTC (link)
	There's a semantic difference between <b> and <strong> or <i> and <em>, though, which is why people pop blood vessels when they're used incorrectly: the former examples are merely presentation elements whereas the latter examples provide actual meaning to things like screen readers when reading your content. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lurker32 2007-11-21 07:00 am UTC (link)
	Fun fact: the word "theory" above is between em tags. Still think it's a silly thing to flip out over, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	grrliz 2007-11-21 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	Fun fact: it should be between ems, so go you. Flipping out may be an over reaction, sure, but I think it's a nice counterpoint to the vast majority of people who think it does not matter which you use, period. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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