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Faulty Premise ([info]faultypremise) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2004-01-30 22:11:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Ooooh...
Hey look, maw, it's childfree wank!

Ok, so wikdsushi decides s/he's had enough of the hard core childfreers in the community getting gleeful about kids getting hurt or talking about hurting kids, etc. So s/he then makes a post stating that s/he's leaving. Most people seem to agree with wikdsushi, except those who don't, of course, and it makes for lovely wank as people do everything from beg wikdsushi to stay to playing the world's smallest violin.

I'm not even sure which side is wankier.

(Post a new comment)


[info]iczer6
2004-01-31 05:18 am UTC (link)
I'm with wikdushi. Honestly I agree with what she says. The flat out borderline psychotic hatred for children that some posters seem to have is really getting old and, well, creepy.


(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re:
[info]faultypremise
2004-01-31 05:24 am UTC (link)
I don't monitor the community, so I never see these things, though I can understand someone being creeped out. But I would just leave quietly, personally.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]rann
2004-01-31 07:05 am UTC (link)
Well, that's the thing... sometimes when someone does an "I'm leaving!" pose, it's not always attention-whoring. Sometimes they honestly are trying to make a valid point about why they're leaving. (Of course, not always, but sometimes.)
I mean, yeah, one could say "You should just do it! Don't talk about it, just -do- it and be quiet about it!" But then, you could apply that to anything. Why do people say how they're gonna vote? Because they want other people to know, maybe to try and influence them, or just to let the world know how they're feeling. Why have an online journal at all? To say what you're doing or how you're feeling or what you think of things.
So, dunno. Hard to say when someone's just trolling for attention/sympathy or when they're just trying to make their point.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]faultypremise
2004-01-31 08:57 am UTC (link)
Look, I do tend to agree with her. Thing is, these 'militant' types don't really give a flying fig and if the community moderator is either one of them or not willing to do anything about it, posting that isn't going to really do a thing other than create drama.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re:
[info]rann
2004-01-31 09:01 am UTC (link)
Oh, I wasn't aiming that at you, it was just a sort of general statement that an "I'm leaving" post isn't always attention whoring. I mean, yeah, it's not likely to do a lot of good, but that's not reason to not say anything at all.
I know that every time I write to a company to say I find their commercials distasteful, or to a webcomic artist saying I found a strip offensive enough to stop reading, I generally figure it's not going to ACTUALLY do any good. But the likelihood that it won't work is no reason not to go ahead and try.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lots42
2004-01-31 02:40 pm UTC (link)
The community moderator IS one of them. I got outright banned for some hard to parse sentence I made about being glad a poster didn't hurt a kid

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]wolfsamurai
2004-01-31 07:06 am UTC (link)
I agree that most times the "I'm leaving!" posts are wanky in the extreme. But sometimes, and I think this might be one of them, the leaving individual genuinely thinks that if they leave and tell people ~why~ that somehow the community might change or at least look at their collective behaviour. Doubtful, but sometimes people need a wake up call.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kijikun
2004-01-31 08:08 am UTC (link)
It Sushi, and is genuine. She doesn't do attenion whoreing like that. If that girl says she's leaving she leaves something.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]kerikeri
2004-01-31 08:30 am UTC (link)
But sometimes, and I think this might be one of them, the leaving individual genuinely thinks that if they leave and tell people ~why~ that somehow the community might change or at least look at their collective behaviour.

I guess, but I don't see her message as particularly constructive or effective in making any changes. For one thing, militant child-haters are not exactly the kind of people who are going to get misty-eyed about causing someone they don't know to leave a livejournal community. For another, the community's "collective behavior" is not what's being objected to; it's the behavior of a few militant types who we've already established are probably not going to care what random internet person thinks of them. So really, it accomplishes nothing but stirring up drama.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]wolfsamurai
2004-01-31 08:58 am UTC (link)
I was rather generalizing in my statement, really, instead of aiming it at this particular situation. I do believe that the OP actually believes that her statement might do some good. I also believe that it's going to do no such thing. But that doesn't change the fact that she could be doing this for a legit reason, rather than being a drama-queen attention whore. And in some cases, such a thing might actually work, where someone leaving actually shocks the community or individuals into rethinking their behaviour. Rare, but I can see the possibility there.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]aruru
2004-01-31 09:10 am UTC (link)
For another, the community's "collective behavior" is not what's being objected to; it's the behavior of a few militant types who we've already established are probably not going to care what random internet person thinks of them. So really, it accomplishes nothing but stirring up drama.

Yes, but the "wake-up call" is probably not aimed at the über-zealots (unlikely, since few of them ever change their minds from just a little thing like this), but rather at the "normal" folks of the community who might have their own misgivings, yet won't speak up/try to ignore the problem fow whatever reasons they have. Perhaps she hopes that by voicing her own dissatisfaction, other people will also start voicing theirs, which in turn might get yet more to act as well.

I know it's cliché to say it, but even the smallest accomplishment can sometimes get the ball rolling.


<--- snarky and cynical, but closet idealist in the end

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]iczer6
2004-01-31 09:27 am UTC (link)
[Perhaps she hopes that by voicing her own dissatisfaction, other people will also start voicing theirs, which in turn might get yet more to act as well.]

Good point, I don't think she was trying to change the militants as much as she was trying to point out that people who act like that aren't doing the community any favors. And that they may very end up alienating people who might be able to help their cause.

I don't think it was 'pay attention to ME' as much as it was 'ya'll have a potential problem that you might wanna look into'.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2004-01-31 08:12 am UTC (link)
Not her style, she wanted to make a point I think. If she wanted a fourm for pity she's a BNF (not that she acts like it) in the HP fandom and just would of had to post something in her jouranl.
The only thing childfree realted metioned lately was asking talking about someone on childfree trying to find a place for kittens.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

*gets the soapbox*
[info]aruru
2004-01-31 07:42 am UTC (link)
Not just creepy, it's also ultimately detrimental to the image of "childfree" as a movement.

I mean, there's plenty of people out there who might not be personally interested in being childfree (including folks who're parents), but would gladly support it once they understood it's really just about allowing others to have a choice on how to lead their lives, without being hassled for it. However, if the psycho-zealot types (which tend to be a pretty loud bunch, despite usually being a small group in any given movement) are the ones they happen to meet first... well, let's just say that it wouldn't be a very good first impression (And yes, first impressions ARE actually fairly important when you're trying to persuade someone. It's part of what gets them to stick around so they can learn more.), and it would make those potential sympathizers a whole lot more difficult to sway.

An ideological/sociopolitical/etc. movement's strength and potential for success does NOT rest solely upon the shoulders of those who belong to its "core" membership - it also highly depends on the support of folks from "the outside" (who don't stand to gain anything from it), too. Just look at the racial equality movements, the gay rights movement, or feminism: None of these would've made nearly as much progress as they've managed to have thus far if it weren't for the support of people from the "more priviledged" ethnic groups, straight folk, and men - all "outsiders."

< /rant >


Anyway, I have no idea what wikdushi's intentions were in making that departure post. It could be wank, but it's also quite possible that what [info]rann and [info]wolfsamurai suggest above is true - personally, I'm the sort that would normally choose to leave quietly, but if disgusted enough with some of the other folks in the group, I might do otherwise.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]musette
2004-01-31 08:00 am UTC (link)
Afreaking men. If you're dealing with any sort of minority movement (and I mean minority as in not the popular opinion, not racial minority), the last thing you want to do is behave in a way that makes people discount your opinion because you're obviously some fringe nutjob. That's the fundamental problem with environmentalists doing things like chaining themselves to trees or repelling off the fucking Golden Gate Bridge (grr, traffic is bad enough, you're not making yourself popular!). Mainstream people are already inclined to dismiss the validity of arguments of groups like that because they're "extremists", so behaving in a way that basically screams "yup, we're crazy extremists!!" only makes the middle of the road folks shrug and ignore whatever your issue is because obviously what you say can't be trusted. Making a scene is only very, very, very rarely actually useful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]rikoshi
2004-01-31 08:38 am UTC (link)
Making a scene is only very, very, very rarely actually useful.

And most people aren't really willing to light themselves on fire.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]rann
2004-01-31 08:57 am UTC (link)
There was a note on that in one of the Doom novels... that a particular religious sect tended to protest the Space Marines by going out in front of one of their bases and lighting themselves on fire. The general response was "Um, well, okay... one less protester, I guess..."

"Oh Jesus Christ..."
"Watch your mouth."
"Aren't you an agnostic?"
"There are no atheists in foxholes."

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]lots42
2004-01-31 02:44 pm UTC (link)
Equip the gaurdhouses with firehoses. That would literally put a damper on a fire-angry protestor.

"Whoosh!" goes the flames. "Splash!" goes the water. Then angry fists are raises

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]musette
2004-01-31 09:20 am UTC (link)
But if only they were! Such a blaze of glory!

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]lots42
2004-01-31 02:43 pm UTC (link)
The part that always made me wonder about childfree (Before the mod went off the deep end) was how they allowed parents to post...parents were chased out of alt.support.childfree but even then the insanes took that over too.

I'm babbling. I just wanted a parent free forum but it looks like I'll have to find an non-insane free one too...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]schuldig
2004-01-31 04:29 pm UTC (link)
Have you ever considered making a childfree comm at JF? Seriously.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
(Anonymous)
2004-01-31 10:24 pm UTC (link)
www.livejournal.com/~child_free_life is a lot less wanky of course they don't post as often as the childfree people do.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: *gets the soapbox*
[info]necronomist
2004-02-01 05:52 pm UTC (link)
I'll take less posting over wanky anyday.

One of the ones who quietly walked away.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

*raises a toast*
[info]rinoared
2004-01-31 05:40 pm UTC (link)
I could not agree more with that.

As a feminist and a mother, I'm all for the freedom of choice. So what it someone doesn't want to breed? The right to control our repruductivity is the right women have fought over, and still that right is not so obvious everywhere. I'm priviledged to have my children out of my own free will.

The vitriol-spewers have never helped any cause. If that is the first impression of any normal, sensible person, they're not going to be open to the message.

Uh, you got room in that soapbox? Or maybe I should buy my own.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

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