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	cjk 2009-06-18 08:56 am UTC (link)
	I can get the original idea, though. I mean, the entire exchange is insanely wanky, but when you are approaching somebody professionally, you do need to be careful with addresses. Admittedly, it's easier in languages (like mine!) that have all sorts of utterly formal 'you' pronouns and address modes. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2009-06-18 09:20 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, but if the emailee thought that it was legit name that other people called her, the person might have assumed it was a common name. Like she went by both. And after the first apology, it should have been dropped. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

cjk
2009-06-18 10:03 am UTC (link)

Agreed. Ms Becton is one wanky person indeed. I'm just saying that it's a cultural divide -- over here I'd be addressing somebody by "Dear Herr/Frau/Doktor/Professor Lastname" until specifically asked to use the first name. Mishaps like this are always a danger in business correspondence, although most people tend to not overreact like Not-Liz. Must be nice to be a position where you can dictate others how to call you.

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	kookaburra 2009-06-18 10:10 am UTC (link)
	I'm American, and I always start off addressing people by Mr./Ms, unless they've introduced themselves otherwise, so it's not just a German vs. American manners. Taking the liberty to call her "Liz" was very patronizing and rude. Of course, that doesn't excuse her being rude back to him. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	eilisliana 2009-06-18 10:15 am UTC (link)
	In correspondence with someone you don't know, it would seem polite to address the other person as 'Title LastName' unless they say otherwise. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kookaburra 2009-06-18 01:35 pm UTC (link)
	I know I would rather be told, "Oh, just call me Bess please! We're very informal here." than "Please address future correspondence to Ms. Ipswitch." (Reply to this)(Parent)

ayezur
2009-06-18 05:23 pm UTC (link)

I got into a bit of a scuffle with my mom the other day when I wanted the full name and title of the person I was supposed to be emailing about an internship. Mom thought I didn't need it because the woman was a friend of hers and I was all "Mom, I don't care if you know her, I've never met her and I'm asking her to saddle one of her underlings with an undergrad for the summer, let me be formal while making my request."

So I think part of it is forsomereason people view email as a less formal medium. And maybe with subsequent emails in a conversation you can loosen up, but the first one should be subject to the same formal rules as a normal letter.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

ecchaniz0r
2009-06-19 01:42 pm UTC (link)

Yeah.

And maybe I'm just too familiar with guys who are overt jackasses (not in my group of friends, thank hell, but these are the dudes my guy friends want out of their gender), but I keep going, 'would the address have been that informal if the e-mailer was addressing another dude?'

idk maybe I'm just in auto-eyeroll with regard to this on account of the raging fail I've seen. Some guys think that regardless of where they are in the pecking order, everything girly is beneath them. Even if she's a CEO or president of something, she's a CHICK and INFERIORRRHURHURRGH. So therefore it is okay to omit titles and other formalities. Because she's only a woman.

(I think Catholic schools ruined me :s)

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	lirazel 2009-06-19 03:30 pm UTC (link)
	The back-and-forth went on for 19 e-mails, with the assistant apologizing six times if she had “offended” Becton, while Becton lectured about name-calling. It looks like the exchange is between two women - which is a different dynamic yet again. I'm more likely to loosen up with another woman during an email exchange than with a guy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

librarianmouse, 2009-06-19 06:10 pm UTC

This

sharpe
2009-06-21 05:17 am UTC (link)

"I'd be addressing somebody by "Dear Herr/Frau/Doktor/Professor Lastname" until specifically asked to use the first name...."

-useless information

Apparently Elizabeth Taylor always preferred to be addressed as "Elizabeth", never Liz. The addressee scored further brownie points if they initially called her Mrs (insert surname of applicable marriage) or Miss Taylor (between marriages) and waited for the invitation to call her "Elizabeth".

The "Liz" headlines used to piss her off. The "Liz and Dick [Burton]" headlines made her batshit crazy.

But she was wanklessly batshit crazy about it.

/ -useless information

Unlike Ms Becton.

But yep, it's generally safer to start the chain of correspondence with Mr, Ms, etc until you find out what they call themselves on the return.

*continues polishing goody-two-shoes*

(Reply to this)(Parent)

honorh
2009-06-18 11:58 am UTC (link)

Much easier in Japan, too. "-san" is a gender-neutral honorific and is pretty much safe in all situations. If you know the person is a doctor, teacher or Christian clergy (not sure about other religious personnel), you attach "-sensei" to the family name. If you want to be really formal, you can address the other as "-sama"

I suppose the equivalent of using a nickname would be attaching "-kun" for adult men or "-chan" for adult women whom you don't know well. Those are used with children or affectionately among friends.

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	jaseroque 2009-06-18 04:06 pm UTC (link)
	Or calling them by their first name rather than their last name, perhaps. Japanese name politics are all a bit complicated. =_= (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ayezur 2009-06-18 05:24 pm UTC (link)
	'lastname-san' unless and until told otherwise is how I got along. But I had leeway in that I was American and not expected to know otherwise. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jaseroque 2009-06-18 05:28 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, I basically go with calling people by the name I'm introduced to them as, or defaulting to lastname-san. (Reply to this)(Parent)

honorh
2009-06-19 01:48 pm UTC (link)

You're not joking. In the teachers' rooms at the schools I work at, even among the teachers who have worked together for years and are friends, they address each other by "-sensei" after the given name or family name. (I use "family name" and "given name" because Japanese names are in reverse order from Western names--"Familyname Givenname" as opposed to "Givenname Familyname.") "Given name-sensei" is less formal, in a very Japanese way. It's a habit I've picked up. I have to admit I like being called "Katie-sensei."

Another bit of Japanese-ness: you never refer to yourself as sensei. When telling someone what you do, if you're a teacher, you use the term kyoshi (eigo no kyoshi in my case--English teacher). Sensei is an honorific along with a job description, and among the Japanese, you just don't claim any honor for yourself. You let others honor you.

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	beachlass 2009-06-18 06:12 pm UTC (link)
	Christian clery have a sensei honorific? That just made my day. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	honorh 2009-06-19 01:37 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, my little Protestant congregation calls our pastor Yanagiya-sensei or, more familiarly, Yuusuke-sensei. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lirazel 2009-06-19 03:38 pm UTC (link)
	Makes more sense than the "brother" and "sister" appellations commonly used amongst Protestants in my part of the U.S. would. I can't imagine calling my pastor "Wilson-oniisama." (Reply to this)(Parent)

	dragonfangirl 2009-06-21 08:07 am UTC (link)
	In some ways I was very grateful for my position at the bottom of the pecking order. because I could just address everyone at my workplace as "sensei" indiscriminately -- even if I didn't know their names, which I often didn't. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	eilan 2009-06-18 04:55 pm UTC (link)
	"Ich kann mich nicht daran erinnern, Ihnen das du angeboten zu haben" is just such a wonderful thing to say. Perfectly polite and yet bitchy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tree 2009-06-18 05:55 pm UTC (link)
	Very elegant! Wish I could do that in my language. "Ne sjećam se da sam Vam ikad zabranila da mi se obraćate na ti" just doesn't flow the same. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	cjk 2009-06-18 09:30 pm UTC (link)
	In Russia I can get away with First Name + Patronymic, but I'm not sure what the modern business correspondence rules are. The traditional put-down equivalent to the above is "мы с вами на брудершафт не пили". ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tree 2009-06-18 09:37 pm UTC (link)
	Love it, very snooty. (If I'm reading it right, that is, and not falling for false friends.) How come there's a German word in the middle of it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

cjk, 2009-06-18 10:21 pm UTC

	shaysdays 2009-06-20 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	I cannot remember you which you to have offered? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	tree 2009-06-18 05:53 pm UTC (link)
	Same here. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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