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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

sneer
2009-08-04 05:44 pm UTC (link)

So in your oh-so-educated opinion: are those of us who do make long-term changes, eat healthy food, and work out five days a week (and I'm not talking picking up a 1-pound dumbbell two or three times and then hitting the shower, I'm talking 30-minute run/1-hour bike ride/other miscellaneous shit that actually works the muscles and revs up the heart rate) and still hovering at a weight that can be medically classified as "overweight" just not trying hard enough?

You're pulling those "false dichotomies" directly out of your ass. But that's what you people do--you take a legitimate argument against your ignorant "well, if you just tried harder you'd lose weight" bullshit and twist it around and exaggerate it to make it look like it's proving your point.

I'm carrying about 30 pounds more than the chart says I should be. I can run three miles without walking. Most thin people I know can't do that. I can lift shit that weighs more than I do. I've ridden a bike 70 miles in a day, more than once, and an average week puts about 60 miles on the old Schwinn.

Oh, and my heart, lungs, pancreas, hips, knees, and ankles? Are just fine.

Thanks for your concern, but I'll take my medical advice from someone who actually knows what the fuck they're talking about.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

silrana
2009-08-04 06:13 pm UTC (link)

No, I would never say you weren't trying hard enough. I'd say you're doing a great job. Because weight isn't everything. With that much exercise, I am sure you have lost a lot of body fat and built up muscle. There is more to good health than what the scale shows.

And that's all I'm talking about. *Healthy* weight/body structures. Not looking like one of those models that look like they'd blow away in a good stiff breeze. Everyone knows that the BMI scale is incredibly skewed, especially with regards to muscle, so I wouldn't worry that much about what the chart says. From what you have said about your lifestyle, I'm not surprised you're in great shape, and I deeply envy you.

See, the thing is, I've been where most of you are arguing from. Ten years ago I would have been saying the exact same things. I decided to hell with diets and worrying about my weight. I bought a new wardrobe of clothes that looked great on me, and felt happy with myself just the way I was. There were lots of women in my family who looked exactly like me, and I felt that the genetic mountain was too high to climb. That lasted about four years.

Then I got sick. Very, very sick. Trip from Florida to the Mayo Clinic sick. Now I'm in my mid forties with a much less resilient body and a condition that my weight is making worse. I weigh 200 lbs. and I'm 5'2", which is by no stretch of the imagination a healthy weight. Whenever I have to walk very much, i.e. take my girls to the mall, I have to use a cane. So I'm coming from another angle. It makes some people here angry to say that longterm life changes are possible. For me, what makes me angry is for people to say, "You can't do it, so just lay down and die."

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

risha
2009-08-04 06:28 pm UTC (link)

It makes some people here angry to say that longterm life changes are possible. For me, what makes me angry is for people to say, "You can't do it, so just lay down and die."

See, this is where my problem is coming in with what you're saying. Lifestyle changes to improve your health are completely possible, and I dearly hope you succeed. THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING AS LOSING WEIGHT.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

silrana
2009-08-04 06:51 pm UTC (link)

But the weight loss is the goal for the lifestyle changes. The extra poundage I am carrying around is placing a strain on already damaged and overworking body parts.

Again, I'm not talking love handles. I'm not talking what you look like in a swimsuit. Or like an old school friend who was built like a linebacker so of course she was going to be heavy by the BMI scales. I'm talking about people who, like me, are carrying enough excess body fat that it is hurting them. I think telling people in that position that they can't do anything about it is counterproductive.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

risha
2009-08-04 07:05 pm UTC (link)

Then we're never going to connect, because I don't believe that fat is inherently bad for you if you have the muscles and underlying good health habits to carry it around.

Two questions:

- What do you think about the studies that say that people in the overweight category have see fewer doctors, have fewer hospitalizations, and live longer than people in the normal weight category, and that people who are overweight but never diet live the longest of all?

- What will you do in ten years if you fall into the 96-98% of people who end up at the same weight or more, despite your best efforts?

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

silrana
2009-08-04 08:07 pm UTC (link)

Actually, I agree with you about fat not being inherently bad. It is a natural part of our bodies, and its creation is a normal biological process. It is necessary for our bodies' functioning. But as with anything, it is the degree that counts. And I agree with you that someone who is moderately overweight -for someone my height, say around 25-30 lbs. - Not a whole lot of harm will be done.

Take that person who is moderately overweight, and I would continue to agree with you that their health would be better if they left their weight alone than if they yoyoed up and down. If they were eating reasonably well and getting some exercise, then I'd say that barring something unexpected, they'll do okay.

Now, take someone like me, who has at least a third of their body weight as fat. I really don't think at that point you can discount the overall effects on your body. Your heart has to handle a lot more blood. Your lungs have to work harder. Risks for conditions like Type II diabetes go up (No, eating sugar doesn't cause it, but it can overload your pancreas' capacity to handle it). The strain on your back, hips, knees and ankles is much higher than they were built to handle. And the effects of this aren't likely to show up in your twenties, but carry it around a few decades and believe me, you feel it.

Now, as to your second question, my health will be a great deal worse. My excess weight aggravates not just one, but three components of my health.

First, in addition to all my other problems, I have Type II diabetes thrown into the mix. While I'm doing an okay job with control now, I'm hovering on the edge of having to go on insulin. During both of my pregnancies, I had gestational diabetes and had to go on insulin, and the only thing that kept me going was that it would end when the baby was born. I will eat lawn clippings to avoid going back to insulin shots.

Second, before I realized I was sick, I walked around for what they estimate was a couple of years with stroke level high blood pressure. Protip - those pokes and prods at the gynecologist find more than feminine troubles, don't skip them. Because of that, my heart was damaged. I am just now, after years of care and work, reaching the point where my doctor does not hear the sounds of a malfunctioning heart. So in ten years with no improvement in the amount of work it has to do, I would say I am in for at the very least a heart valve replacement.

As it is now, I have to use a cane when I go to the mall or anyplace else I have to walk a lot because I get tired so quickly. In ten years it is entirely possible I could be in a wheelchair. Fun fact - taking a cane to Disney World is a blast. I decided to tough it out for my kids (with lots of rest breaks, naturally), and the Disney people were all over me. One of the employees even gave me an email address to send them any suggestions for how they could make things easier for people with mobility issues.

And third, I take some oddball pills. One is literally the *only* pill available for my condition. I've heard the South Koreans were working on something, but heaven knows when that will bear any fruit in the U.S. The problem with that pill is that it was generally used for another condition. Most doctors don't prescribe it, or at least not for long, all that much anymore because long-term use has a significant risk of kidney and liver damage. And I am going to be taking it for the rest of my life. If my weight was lower, my doctor could reduce the dosage, and my risk would drop.

Now, as for what I would specifically *do* in ten years? Keep trying. Because reducing my weight has a whole slew of good effects, and not losing it doesn't benefit me at all.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

risha
2009-08-04 09:34 pm UTC (link)

Now, take someone like me, who has at least a third of their body weight as fat. I really don't think at that point you can discount the overall effects on your body. Your heart has to handle a lot more blood. Your lungs have to work harder. Risks for conditions like Type II diabetes go up (No, eating sugar doesn't cause it, but it can overload your pancreas' capacity to handle it). The strain on your back, hips, knees and ankles is much higher than they were built to handle. And the effects of this aren't likely to show up in your twenties, but carry it around a few decades and believe me, you feel it.

Unfortunately, you can't make broad, sweeping generalizations like that. Maybe your fat is too much for your damaged heart to handle long term - I'm not a heart expert. But my and many other people's perfectly normal hearts are doing just fine at the same fat percentages as yours. (I do have high blood pressure, but so does everyone else in my family, including all of the skinny people, and my heart has continually tested out as perfectly fine.) Same with my pancreas, and believe me, my doctor is near obsessive about testing my sugar twice a year, and I'm not anywhere close to pre-diabetes either. My right knee is fucked up right now because I fell hard on it again after tearing the ligaments in a fall a couple of years ago, but my left knee has carried me around with nary a twinge just fine for decades now.

Still, it sounds like you have a tough row to hoe, healthwise. I hope things improve soon. :(

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

silrana
2009-08-04 10:27 pm UTC (link)

Hmm, true, it probably was overly broad. But I'm sure you can agree that it isn't *good* for you. Still, if you have regular checkups and your doctor says you are doing just fine, then I certainly think that if you are happy just the way you are, great.

Looking over some of my posts, I haven't been as clear as I should have been that I'm not trying to tell people that they should lose weight if they are doing fine. If you're happy, who am I to tell you to do anything differently? I just got upset because some of the posts in this thread were acting as though nobody has a *real* reason to need to lose weight, and that is was useless to try.

Bad diets? Been there, still have the bad memories. I would never advocate them to anyone. Insane exercise regimens? Okay, I'm too lazy for one of those, but I knew a girl in college who nearly screwed herself up badly doing that. Again, not a fan, no way I would tell someone to do something like that. A stick thin figure being somehow essential to life? One word. Mom. Grrrrr.

So when I said, "If I do this, it could do something positive for my health, and I don't think people should be saying it's bad to try it," I didn't mean for anyone to translate it as "You should do everything humanly possible, no matter how stupid, to become a Twiggy lookalike or you're an awful, terrible person." Sorry I let my emotions and temper make me upset enough that I didn't pick my words more carefully.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

risha
2009-08-04 11:36 pm UTC (link)

Well, it's not like I was absolutely clear with everything I said, either.

I just worry about people, because sometimes (almost always!) it really is impossible for that person to permanently lose weight, and it becomes a gigantic trap of trying, failing, and then feeling bad about themselves. And then society tries to tell them that it's a death sentence (usually false) that they've given themselves (usually false).

From there, it becomes very easy from this side for that concern about the damage that people can, and do, do to themselves in this endless quest, to come across as poo-pooing the idea that you're one of the tiny minority of people can lose some and the even tinier number who are healthier if they can.

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	Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but... sneer 2009-08-04 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	But the weight loss is the goal for the lifestyle changes No. Being healthy is the goal for the lifestyle changes. If you happen to lose weight in the process, fine. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

sneer
2009-08-04 07:42 pm UTC (link)

With that much exercise, I am sure you have lost a lot of body fat and built up muscle

Thank you so much for your patronizing attempt to not be an asshole, but guess what--you're wrong.

I'm 5' 4", 170, and it's not all muscle. Not even close.

If I lay flat on my back I can poke my stomach and feel my abs but a visible six-pack would require me to lose the three or four jeans sizes worth of pooch and muffintop they're buried under. If I hold my leg at the right angle I can kind of see my quads but when I stand up they're invisible. And there's not a single store in a 20-mile radius that carries a sports bra that actually fits me and works.

If you saw me in a bikini (assuming someone somewhere made one that fit my weird-ass measurements), you would not know how active I am.

Although it does bother me a little for reasons I'll expand on shortly, I'm mostly fine with that. But there are people who see me ordering a small frappuccino and roll their eyes at me, or ask me if I'm really going to eat all that, or even ask me who I'm shopping for when I'm looking at running shoes.

Because I don't look like an athlete. In fact, by (some fucking ridiculous) aesthetic standards, I'm fat. And as we all know, it's not possible for fat people to be active and stay fat. *snort*

It makes some people here angry to say that longterm life changes are possible. For me, what makes me angry is for people to say, "You can't do it, so just lay down and die."

Way to entirely miss the point! What's making people angry is not saying that long term changes are possible. What's making people angry, and what makes ME absofuckinglutely livid, is saying "if you're fat it's because you're not making the right choices."

I have some lingering body image issues. Please see upthread for the fun I had in the military with this, and would you like me to tell you about the series of fad diets my mom put me on when I was in junior high because she decided that at 5' 3" and 130 pounds I was morbidly obese? Would you like me to tell you about how I spent most of 8th grade having gum for breakfast and water for lunch in the hopes that I might lose enough weight to make her stop eating dessert in front of me and telling me I couldn't have any because I had a weight problem? Would you like to hear about how relatives would see me at Christmas and Thanksgiving and go "oh, you've lost weight!" and she would go "No she didn't, she gained three pounds this week"?

Most of me wants to be okay with the fact that by some peoples' stupid standards I'm going to be fat no matter what I do (without resorting to stupid and dangerous shit). There is still that little voice that tells me the guy that leaned out his truck window and yelled "HURR FATASS" at me last week is right. I am still learning to shut it the fuck up. It's not easy.

And I'm not the only person in this boat, not by a long shot.

So how the fuck do you think I'm going to react when I see people who don't know me from Adam tell me I still have that muffin top and those jello thighs because I'm not making the right ~*~long term life choices~*~ ?

I know I can't lose much more weight and I won't get any smaller than a size 12 to 16 without resorting to stupid and dangerous shit. I eat ~2500 calories a day now because that's the amount of fuel I feel healthiest taking in. I don't plan to make the ~*~long term life change~*~ to cut it any further. If that's what you consider "laying down and dying," then just fucking bury me.

And I do know people who are about your height and about your weight who are quite healthy. If you need a cane to walk it's probably not solely because of your weight. I'm sorry you've been so ill, that's a terrible thing to have happen to you. If you don't feel healthy where you are, that's okay and it's good that you're able to recognize it and you're doing something about that, and I say that with no sarcasm whatsoever.

Now learn to recognize when you need to mind your own fucking business.

...ugh okay I'll just mop all that up on my way out, my lunch is here.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

silrana
2009-08-04 08:48 pm UTC (link)

First off, I wasn't trying to be patronizing. I *do* envy your self-discipline to put so much effort into your exercise.

I am not now and would never advocate telling people that they are lazy, etc. for not losing weight. What I *am* arguing against is people making blanket comments about it being impossible. That discourages people who are like me, whose weight is doing them physical harm, from trying.

And like I said in another post, ten years ago I would have been saying exactly the same things as you are now. I've gotten the eyeroll at the vending machine. My mother, who is stick thin, is so rabid about it that I have had to flat out forbid her to bring up the subject of weight in front of my daughters so that she doesn't fuck with their heads like she did mine. My daughters are being taught about health, not looking good for society, and I'm not letting her mess that up. I've gotten the stereotypical 'picked last in gym class'. The yelling out of the pickup truck with phrases I wouldn't repeat, even here. The boss who asked me if I'd gained weight recently because she (again, stick thin) thought that style pants 'wasn't right for people with your, um, figure'. I know *exactly* where you are coming from with the anger about how overweight people are treated.

I would never, ever, say you were lazy. Me? I'm lazy. I work at a computer all day and I don't exercise anywhere near as much as I should, within my limitations. I would say from your posts that you are doing exactly what I am talking about, and a helluva lot better than I am. You have achieved a lifestyle that you feel makes you healthy, and that makes you feel good. Size 12 to 16? Perfectly wonderful! I wouldn't dream of being one of those assholes who think that anyone who is above a size 4 is a whale.

I admit I phrased things pretty snarkily in my first couple of posts today, but I suppose that's because I react to the phrase, "It's impossible, so don't bother to try," roughly the way a bull does to a matador. When doing something is so vital to you, not just for your state of mind but for literally your survival, and people as saying that it can't be done, it gets me worked up.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

sneer
2009-08-04 09:09 pm UTC (link)

What's patronizing is you talking to me like you think I can't tell the difference between fat and muscle. One jiggles. The other doesn't. It's not rocket science. Or assuming I don't know BMI lies. Yes. I do. I know that very well.

I know *exactly* where you are coming from with the anger about how overweight people are treated.

Then maybe you could try learning from that experience and, once again, LEARNING TO MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS about other peoples' weight.

I wouldn't dream of being one of those assholes who think that anyone who is above a size 4 is a whale.

Then don't engage in the same kind of blame-n-shame bullshit those assholes do when someone says "yeah, hey, I cannot safely lose any more weight." This may come as a shock to you but they might just know themselves better than you do.

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Re: Might get some negative feedback on this, but...

silrana
2009-08-04 09:47 pm UTC (link)

I never intended to imply you don't know the difference. It's just that I've had a lot of weightlifter friends over the years, and they were always grousing about how the BMI index said they were overweight. And I wasn't assuming that you didn't know about the BMI distortions, I was trying to show that I knew so you wouldn't think I didn't understand about them.

Normally, I would agree with you about minding my own business. But I was never trying to tell other people how to live their lives. I was objecting to them telling me how I should live mine. I was reading post after post of people saying that making a long term (hopefully lifelong) change in my weight simply wasn't possible. That genetics or any number of factors would not allow it. I don't believe in 'impossible'. And I don't appreciate people telling me what I can and cannot do any more than you do.

It was never about "If you were a good, unlazy etc. person you could lose weight." It was about "Don't tell me I can't save my own life."

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