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vassilissa ([info]vassilissa) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2009-12-15 18:54:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Satanic ritual abuse wank
I dithered about whether to put this in unfunnybusiness or here, but in the end Satanic Ritual Abuse is not real, and what the person who said it was said was so funny it belonged here.

People who blatantly deny the existence of ritual abuse after being offered solid resources to the contrary demonstrate that they don’t need evidence about its existence. Instead, when they continue to deny its existence in a seemingly obsessive manner, they are more likely trolling for new victims in hopes that responding survivors will – while more emotional – slip-up and provide vulnerable, personal information.

There you go. If you deny the existance of ritual abuse, it's because you're looking for new victims to ritually abuse.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]eleutheria
2009-12-15 12:00 pm UTC (link)
People are skeptical about "satanic ritual abuse" in general because there's been a fairly consistent pattern of people inducing memories of shit that didn't happen in people (particularly Dominionist cults) who then turn against their families and their friends-- people have lost their children over SRA accusations, their livelihoods, and even their freedom. And it's been used over and over again to persecute people for following Pagan and Satanist religions and deny people religious freedom. Every single investigation of this shit in every single country where it has surfaced has found nothing. Some countries have gone back on their charges against people caught up in this lie. The US hasn't.

And I agree, it's really seriously unfunnybusiness.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]eleutheria
2009-12-15 12:06 pm UTC (link)
And, for those interested, more info on recent developments about SRA.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]solle
2009-12-15 12:15 pm UTC (link)
Inducing memories is still abuse, and it doesn't matter what specific cult did it or what they worshipped. And even if no evidence of physical abuse was found, it's still possible that it happened. And if it didn't happen back then, all the media coverage probably has inspired some sick fucks later on to try it anyway.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]eleutheria
2009-12-15 12:29 pm UTC (link)
Have there been people who identified as Pagan or Satanist who abused people? Yes-- not only possibly, but definitely, some have been exposed. Is there an organized conspiracy to ritually abuse Christian children? Absolutely not, there is no evidence anywhere of any such thing, and belief in this lie has caused untold damage. There are abusers in every religion, it doesn't mean there's something rotten and conspiratorial at the core of the faith-- if it did, nobody would still be Catholic.

(And YES, it does matter what they worshipped, when it's used as grounds to deny entire minority religions their right to freely worship.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]msmanna
2009-12-15 12:33 pm UTC (link)
Inducing memories is still abuse

Not induced by cults. Induced by bad/incompetent psychologists and law enforcement officers. And, yes. I'd say that is abuse.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]eleutheria
2009-12-15 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Also by cults-- do-it-yourself exorcisms and "Christian counseling" (including recovered memories) are definitely part of the Dominionist spectrum of abusive shit.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kylenne
2009-12-15 06:27 pm UTC (link)
And--GASP--that shit is never, EVER called out as ritual abuse, though it clearly fits the definition. As long as you're abusing kids for Jesus (see also: exorcising Teh Gay out of kids) it's a-OK apparently.

...bitter Pagan here, yes.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]eleutheria
2009-12-16 12:44 pm UTC (link)
Bitter Pagan here who also used to be a Theistic Satanist for almost two decades. During the height of the Satanic Panic. VERY bitter about having to constantly defend against being called a child molester.

(And yeah, I know. Nobody ever wants to act against Bible-based cults that are clearly and demonstratively abusive because "how can a church be bad?")

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]issendai
2009-12-15 10:40 pm UTC (link)
All of this is going to be vague because I can't recall the details of the study, but:

A state did a study of RMT to determine whether to continue paying for it. The patients it followed were 30 to 40 adults, most of whom were functional adults at the start of therapy: not seriously depressed or suicidal, employed, in a stable relationship, in contact with their families, etc. Over the course of therapy, most of the employed patients lost their jobs; most of the people in a stable relationship lost their partners. Almost all of them broke off contact with their families. Many of them became suicidal. A few began cutting. Over the course of several years, RMT destroyed the entire group--for their own good.

Yes, that sounds like abuse.

(The state stopped funding for people in RMT, because holy shit.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]beccastareyes
2009-12-15 02:48 pm UTC (link)
Usually it's not the families inducing the memories, but (poor) psychologists, acting under the belief that hypnotic suggestion can't create what isn't there.

There are books specifically about the phenomenon, but I learned about it in Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. (The book is advocating for critical thinking and science versus superstition, and so a great deal of it talked about the ways our perceptions and common sense could be mistaken.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lady_ganesh
2009-12-15 05:28 pm UTC (link)
That book was excellent.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]miss_padfoot
2009-12-15 11:30 pm UTC (link)
That was one of my favorite books ever.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lady_ganesh
2009-12-15 05:33 pm UTC (link)
By 2005, the “Satanic panic” had largely dissipated for two main reasons:
+ In spite of decades of dedicated police investigations, there resulted a complete lack of hard evidence of its existence.

+ Essentially all beliefs in ritual abuse by its survivors have been traced to a suggestive and unreliable therapeutic technique known as Recovered Memory Therapy (RMT). This technique regularly creates horrendous memories of abusive events that never happened.


This shit did not happen. Pretending it did, or maybe might have, helps exactly no one.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sneer
2009-12-15 06:03 pm UTC (link)
Essentially all beliefs in ritual abuse by its survivors have been traced to a suggestive and unreliable therapeutic technique known as Recovered Memory Therapy (RMT).

So someone actually found every single person in the entire world who claimed to have been ritually abused and debunked their claims?

Really?

Every single one?

Ever?

Everywhere in the world?

Really?

And you've also met and spoken with every single person who claims to have been ritually abused and personally debunked their claims, and are thus qualified to come in here and tell us that nothing like this has ever happened anywhere, to anyone, ever?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lady_ganesh
2009-12-15 06:14 pm UTC (link)
And your proof that it has happened is...what, exactly?

Look, we should believe kids when they say they're abused, and we should have people who know what they're doing in to help, support, and get the truth. Insisting that SRA must have happened sometime, to someone is, IMO, completely unhelpful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sneer
2009-12-15 06:37 pm UTC (link)
And your proof that nothing like it has ever happened anywhere ever to anyone is... what, exactly?

Yes, we should absolutely believe kids when they say they've been abused. So why do you insist on dismissing out of hand the claims of any child who claims to have been ritually abused? Insisting that ritual abuse has never happened to anyone ever and assuming any child who claims to have been abused in such a way is making it up or has had false memories planted is worse than unhelpful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]melannen
2009-12-15 06:57 pm UTC (link)
The reason it's important to debunk claims of SRA is that it is, essentially, a blood libel - or at least very close kin to one.

The narratives created in SRA cases always have much more in common with narratives created (worldwide, and throughout history) to justify persecution of an outgroup than they do with any actual child abuse/murder cases - the very rare cases of *factual* ceremonial murder/abuse happen in very different ways, and are if anything hampered in their prosecution by SRA hysteria.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sandglass
2009-12-15 11:11 pm UTC (link)
You can't prove a negative. No one has ever proven that RSA has happened, and have in fact proven that the "evidence" was manufactured with great bias, therefore it's reasonable to believe it hasn't happened.

Do crazy people sometimes abuse children? Yes. But that's not RSA.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eilan, 2009-12-16 12:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inalasahl, 2009-12-17 12:13 am UTC

[info]sneer
2009-12-15 06:49 pm UTC (link)
And just to be clear: no, I don't believe there was a vast conspiracy to commit this kind of abuse. Of course not.

I am just saying that it is possible that there are or have been isolated incidents of crazy people doing this sort of shit.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]melange, 2009-12-15 07:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sneer, 2009-12-15 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarracenia, 2009-12-15 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sneer, 2009-12-15 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]melange, 2009-12-15 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jupiterpluvius, 2009-12-17 02:39 am UTC

[info]kylenne
2009-12-15 06:30 pm UTC (link)
I think...you might be new to this subject.

Start here.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sneer
2009-12-15 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Do I think there's ever been a widespread OMGSATANIC conspiracy to steal children and do terrible things to them? No. Of course not.

Do I think it is at least possible that there may have been, at some point in modern history, isolated incidents of crazy people who think they're serving Satan doing terrible things to people? Yes, I think that is possible.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ayezur, 2009-12-15 06:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - tetradecimal, 2009-12-15 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sneer, 2009-12-15 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2009-12-15 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - tetradecimal, 2009-12-15 11:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-12-16 01:02 am UTC
(no subject) - tetradecimal, 2009-12-16 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-12-16 03:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2009-12-16 05:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-12-16 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sneer, 2009-12-16 01:15 am UTC

[info]duraniedrama
2009-12-15 09:38 pm UTC (link)
Well, tell you what--how about you find a verifiable claim that hasn't been debunked. I've yet to come across one. Waving your hands and insisting it's possible in theory proves nothing. Show me an example of such--a legitimate news report of such an incident that doesn't turn out to have been faked or debunked.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sneer
2009-12-16 01:35 am UTC (link)
Sooooo I'm going to go eat my dinner now: crow, side order of foot. And humble pie.

I am a fuckhead, and I apologize.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lady_ganesh
2009-12-16 02:02 am UTC (link)
It's okay. We all have bad days.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]seiberwing
2009-12-17 12:05 am UTC (link)
And that part, to me, is the real unfunny.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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