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sequinedlizard 2010-01-17 09:08 pm UTC (link)

That was my policy when I was teaching students. I'd prefer if you pay attention, and attendance was unfortunately mandatory (I hate those policies), but if you're going to ignore me, at least don't be obvious about it. If I walked by and they were doing sudoku or crosswords, I might poke fun at them by offering hints, but texting or IMming just struck me as that much ruder. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2010-01-18 01:45 am UTC (link)
	If I got bored, I just worked on other homework. Like on the days I went to two or three classes and would need to work on a paper or something. Especially if I was definitely going to get an easy A in the current class. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sequinedlizard 2010-01-18 01:54 am UTC (link)
	I did other assignments, wrote stories, and composed music (this was easy to hide because I was a music major :) ). Most professors really don't care, as long as it's not obnoxious. Texting is all to easy to fall into the "obnoxious" category :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2010-01-18 01:57 am UTC (link)
	Sometimes in Astronomy, I'd use the computer but that was mostly to take notes...I'd just zone out after a bit and websurf (read my mail, check LJ) to get back on track. Kind of like when you make a dog do something else after not obeying in class. Then I was fine. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	sequinedlizard 2010-01-18 02:04 am UTC (link)
	-nod- Sometimes you do need to take a brain break. I just wish that more people were discreet/subtle/respectful about it. Or in general :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2010-01-18 02:06 am UTC (link)
	Sometimes I'd do homework, too. I also turn off my phone, by habit, while in class. It's only fair. Why is good manners hard to figure out? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	nevadafighter 2010-01-18 03:38 am UTC (link)
	If I hadn't had to adhere to the university's attendance policy, mine would have been "I don't care if you only come to one class. Miss as many as you want. Your attendance or lack thereof will affect your performance one way or the other." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sequinedlizard 2010-01-18 03:43 am UTC (link)

That would have been my preferred option, as well. I had some freedom regarding what and how to teach, but unfortunately had to keep attendance and factor it in to the grade. I figure if they don't want to be there, that's just going to make them more likely to text or whatever and be a distraction. Of course, given that I was used mainly to teach smaller sections and there was a main lecture class that 200 students were supposed to go to, if I hadn't done attendance, I probably would have been spending a few hours by myself each week. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

nevadafighter 2010-01-18 03:52 am UTC (link)

Wow. I only had 17 students, so I was lucky. I was pretty firm with my rules, but let them know I was reasonable--I am a big believer in case-by-case rather than zero-tolerance. Cell phones off (texting wasn't a big thing then), keep chatter to a minimum, and because the prof can't stand it, no gum chewing. They didn't push it; everyone was very respectful, though I attribute that more to having kids who largely came from Catholic schools. ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sequinedlizard 2010-01-18 03:58 am UTC (link)

For me, I tended to start off kind of hard ass, and then relax as the year progressed. Like my syllabus was very detailed and I was very adamant about deadlines and all that. But I'd also quote Eddie Izzard and stuff in my lectures, and if students came to me personally, was fairly likely to give them some wiggle room. I figured that way if word got out I was a softy, better for them to catch on at the end of the year, rather than the beginning :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

nevadafighter 2010-01-18 04:03 am UTC (link)

That's the way to go. I guess I got lucky; only one student flunked (because he just stopped coming to class and doing work) and the rest paid attention and even liked the black and white movie I showed them (we did Stalag 17--the play, then the movie because I couldn't bear to put them through another round of Shakespeare or Tennessee Williams). The fact that many of them came back after the semester asking if I'd be teaching another class they could take was the biggest compliment I could have received. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Deleted post)

snarkhunter 2010-01-20 01:11 am UTC (link)

If you resent the amount of time required to attend regular classes, perhaps you'd be better off taking online courses. In my classes, attendance is mandatory. And it's mandatory because class discussion is a vital part of the learning process. If my students don't like that, they don't have to take my courses. I've also found that students who choose to judge for themselves how many formal courses they need to pass a unit tend to judge very poorly. Or come to class all of 3 times and still manage to pass the exams by the skin of their teeth, but I fail them anyway for not doing any of the rest of the work. (Angry from the other side of it. It's not like we keep students there because we like to make them suffer.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

snarkhunter 2010-01-20 01:51 am UTC (link)

Wow. Thanks. I'm glad you know me so well. I was being serious about online courses, by the way. They really are great in that they allow people to learn in the ways that are best for them, and they open up educational opportunities to people who might not have been able to pursue them in other ways. That may have come off sounding snarky, but it wasn't mean to be. And if classes with required attendance don't work for people for whatever reason, often online courses are the better option. But the fact is that most offline courses are designed in such a way that class attendance and participation is actually there to help you learn, because pedagogical best practices often involve a great deal of student participation and ownership of the class. So I don't want my students in the class to gratify my ego. Nor to prove to the school that they should keep the heat on in the classrooms (not that mine does anyway). No. I want them there because the stuff that goes on in class is design to help. them. learn. You think I'm smugly arrogant. Mostly, I think I'm trying to do my goddamned job--a job I love, by the way--and it's made surprisingly difficult when I have to cater to the whims of special snowflakes who, if they know the subject matter so well, don't need to come to class and participate in the learning process. It's surprisingly disruptive to constantly have to catch up students who miss work, or who are behind or uninformed because they missed the crucial announcement about the paper due date because they didn't need to be in class the day before, or who don't understand the discussion today because they missed the discussion yesterday, which today's is building upon. It really does look different from the other side. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

nevadafighter 2010-01-20 05:11 am UTC (link)

What did Miss Baleetion say to you? I think her first deleted comment was this one: I would love this option, especially as I have already proven academically that I can study at home. As an adult graduate, I'd like to be given the opportunity to judge for myself how many formal lessons I need in order to pass a unit. /didn't realise until now just how annoyed I am. I didn't reply because really--what can you say to such self-aggrandizement? "OMG I can totally just learn everything at home and don't need some stupid professor who thinks he knows more than me to tell ME what to do!" (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

snarkhunter 2010-01-20 02:06 pm UTC (link)

I was so pissed at that comment--as I said in other comments, I was really cranky last night--that I replied without thinking. (As you said, what can you say?) In response, she said, This sort of smug arrogance is why I don't want to get into teaching. I like the job, but I can't stand working with people like you. Charming, no? She deleted her comments about 5 minutes after I posted the one you're replying too. ::eyeroll:: (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	nevadafighter 2010-01-20 07:11 pm UTC (link)
	I can't stand comment deleters. If you're not going to own up to your words, don't say/type them in the first place and if you say something stupid, use it to learn from. Smug arrogance; those words are not what she thinks they mean. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(no subject) - nevadafighter, 2010-01-20 07:58 pm UTC

snarkhunter 2010-01-20 04:12 am UTC (link)

I'm much crankier on this subject, below (possibly too cranky?), but I guess I feel like mandatory attendance is necessary in classes where participation is a significant part of one's grade. My classes are heavily weighted towards class participation, so not showing up (after the *generous* number of freebie absences I allow) affects your participation grade, which affects your final grade. After all, you can't participate if you're not there. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

nevadafighter 2010-01-20 04:30 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I had the 10% participation section as well, mainly because there was lots of peer review and discussion that students really needed to be there for. I guess my approach was more that "I'm not going to run after you and pester you about coming to class; if you miss too many classes it will only hurt you in the end, not me." I put the burden of caring about coming to class on them. I took attendance, counted the days, etc. but I let them know I wasn't going to lecture, pester, or even remind them. All told most of my students had very good attendance and I don't think I reduced anyone's grade because of excessive absence. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

snarkhunter 2010-01-20 02:13 pm UTC (link)

I'm not going to run after you and pester you about coming to class; if you miss too many classes it will only hurt you in the end, not me. I completely agree. I don't chase them down, either. I figure they're adults, and if they want to fuck over their participation grade (which in my classes is usually 15-20%, and honestly kind of an easy A), that's their business. I'm also not a complete hard-ass. If there's something serious going on, fine. But it's up to them to let me know about it. I have reduced people's grades because of excessive absence--but we're talking like missing half the class, here. If you miss 5 days, I might give you a *little* ding on your grade, but not enough to be really noticeable. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	funwithrage 2010-01-20 10:51 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's the thing: class participation is maybe twenty percent, at most. If you know the material well enough that you don't need to be in class, you should be doing well enough on your tests that you can take the participation hit and come out fine. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

snarkhunter 2010-01-20 11:17 pm UTC (link)

The problem with that is that you have to ace the tests and the papers to get a good grade without a decent participation grade in my classes. Traditionally, my classes (English) look something like this: 20% Participation, 20% Midterm, 20% First Paper, 20% Second Paper, 20% Final Exam. And I'm a tough grader on papers. I'm a complete bitch (or a smug arrogant teacher, according to the Baleetion Fairy, above) because I determine what goes on the tests based on the class discussion. So if we read Poem A, but never talked about it in class? It's unlikely to be on the test. Basically, people who don't come to class don't do well on exams, because the exams are designed around in-class discussion. (Reply to this)(Parent)

isaiddietpepsi 2010-01-21 08:21 pm UTC (link)

Oh man, I always hated it when professors marked us for participation. I mean, I totally understand why y'all do it, so I'm not criticizing the policy per se...it's just that this always means that you have a bunch of people making the most inane comments solely for the purpose of getting an A in participation. I majored in English, and all of my English classes had this problem. The professor would say something say something, and a student would raise his or her hand and essentially paraphrase what the prof had just said, not bothering to add anything new to the discussion. Like, if the prof said, "Gatsby was a frog," the student might then comment, "Yeah, Gatsby was an amphibian known particularly for its protruding eyes, long hind legs, and webbed digits." (And yes, I know that example makes no sense. :P ) Made me want to bang my head against a wall. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

snarkhunter 2010-01-21 09:29 pm UTC (link)

Which is *precisely* why I don't actually grade for just talking in class. As far as I'm concerned, sitting there and at least *pretending* to pay attention is also a form of participation. Also, if one of my students just paraphrased what I'd said, I'd ask for more specific detail. Like, "Okay, fine. But where do we see Gatsby depicted as a frog in the novel? Specifically?" (Reply to this)(Parent)

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