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Kookaburra's Journal ([info]kookaburra) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2010-10-22 21:30:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:In Denial
Current music:Little Bunny Foo Foo
Entry tags:knitting

KnitCamp 2010
I'd say something about how who would have expected that such a genteel and respectable pastime as knitting could generate drama, but I think everyone knows what a crock that is by now.

Recently, there was a large event called "Knit Camp" that was held on Stirling Campus in Scotland. It failed hard. We're talking 6.5 on the TwiCon Fail Scale here. In the interest of full disclosure, I have only the vaguest idea of what went on because I joined Ravelry a week or so after the debacle, and the Cult of Nice is strong on there, so I'm sure I've only accumulated a very small amount of the information that's out there.

Much of the drama happened on the Ravelry.com forums, and you need to be a member to read them, but it has open membership. Links that go to Ravelry.com threads will be denoted by an asterisk. (*)

Anyone with more information/links/screenshots, please let me know, and I'll add it to the post.


Our story begins sometime last year when (apparently) some people said they wished the UK would have a large Knit Camp, such as is apparently common in the US. (I'm a new, and rather hermetic knitter, so I have no idea if this is true.) A yarn shop owner, Jo Watson of the now defunct British Yarns, decided to try and make it happen. People were enthusiastic, and the KnitCamp was scheduled to take place at the University of Stirling in Scotland 9th August 2010 - 13th August 2010, with a "Ravelry Weekend" taking place after that.

The first hints of something going wrong was Ravelry "pulling out" - but I am foggy on how they could pull out if they had never given permission for KnitCamp to use Ravelry's name in conjunction with their event. I'm not sure if said "Ravelry Weekend" ever took place, or what it was supposed to entail.

Then quite a few instructors canceled, but their names remained on the list of tutors, leaving students confused about what would happen to their classes (many people had already prepaid by this time) and who, actually was supposed to be teaching.

However, any threads that even had a hint of dissatisfaction were ruthlessly locked and archived by Jo on the UK Knit Camp and Ravelry Weekend 2010 group* on Ravelry. People with concerns were dismissed as negative nellies who would hate anything no matter how awesome.

Why are you all being so MEEEEEEAN?*

Then the week of KnitCamp arrived. The tutors from North America did not. Well, they arrived, and were denied entry because Jo had not properly filed the paperwork to get temporary work visas for them*. But don't worry! Instead of working on sorting things out, she's reassuring everyone that A few of the people are here, really!* EVERYTHING IS FINE YOU GUYS.

Things went downhill from there, I'll let the links speak for themselves.

The full story from instructor Lucy Neatby, one of the instructors who was denied entry along with an abridged version Basically, final versions of contracts were not what had been agreed upon, and she has not been paid anything, and is not out-of-pocket for her flight as well.

Some instructors choose a more metaphorical way of communicating their dissatisfaction with what went down.

Someone who was, in my opinion, press ganged into being free labor writes about their experience.

8/11/10 blog post about not being able to attend the one class she signed up for, because of last minute schedule changes.

Series of posts on UK Knit Camp, again with the metaphorical photos.

What is amusing, however, is the about-face some of the KnitCamp boosters do when it becomes clear that they won't be paid for their time and expertise:

WoollyWormhead's immediate post-KnitCamp blogpost. ...and a decidedly less-than-happy post after it became clear there was no payment forthcoming.

Hooray! I loved teaching at KnitCamp! Not enough to do it for free, though!

And what was our intrepid organizer doing while all of this was going down?

She took a vacation. Afterall, bilking people out of their money and time is hard work, y'all.

She also got her nanny or someone to post about how all of the negativity surrounding the event is affecting Jo's health!*

When the above accounts from the tutors came out, people were of course appalled. And everyone knows that the solution to your money disappearing is to send more money to someone you know online who SWEARS it is a charitable collection for the tutors who weren't paid for KnitCamp. Despite the fact that we have no way of knowing who was paid what.*


However, recently some people have been getting "paid", for a certain value of "legal tender" in some cases, which makes one wonder if it was really a scam all along, or just incredible shortsightedness about what actually has to be organized for an event like this to be successful.

Please accept this token of my appreciation for the time and labor you gave me.

Refunds in yarn?

Oh, another good way to find wankery is to look at all of Jo's old posts on Ravelry.*



(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]glossing2
2010-10-23 05:00 pm UTC (link)
God, I love knitting wank. SO MUCH DRAMA OVER OVERPRICED WOOL AND FUGLY PIECES.

the Cult of Nice is strong on there
ahahahaha, oh, dude. That's putting it so mildly.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kookaburra
2010-10-23 07:04 pm UTC (link)
My first brush with them was when I said to someone who was asking opinions about acrylic and I said something about if they had to make something with acrylic I'd go with Caron or Bernat instead of RH and ooooooh my God, you'd have thought I'd insulted people's children or something.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]feenix
2010-10-23 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Out of curiosity: What does RH stand for? I'm guessing that it's a smaller brand, right?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kookaburra
2010-10-23 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Red Heart is actually a huge brand. It's mostly known for the "super saver" skeins where you can get a metric shitload of yarn for cheap, and if a supermarket, walmart, or Target has yarn, it will most likely be Red Heart. However, if you point out anywhere on Ravelry that you get what you pay for with yarn, a whole host of people who only use RH will descend upon you for daring to insult the yarn that their granny made their favorite blankie out of, and don't you know that some people can't AFFORD anything else, you horrible yarn snob.

Pointing out that you yourself use RHSS for certain projects will have no effect.

There's lots of talk about "yarn snobs" on Ravelry, but the wankiest people I've come across are ones that are loudest about how cheap their yarn is. It's baffling.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]feenix
2010-10-23 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Ah. See, I actually ended up making the same assumption about yarn snobs, which was why I made that (horribly wrong) guess!

(I should disclose that - as should have been obvious from my initial comment - I know JACK SHIT about knitting. I should also disclose that I've never even noticed yarn in any of the big-box stores around me, and I'm from New Jersey, so that's also a sign of how obtuse I am.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]feenix
2010-10-23 08:56 pm UTC (link)
(the assumption that yarn snobs would be wankier than people using the cheap stuff, that is)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2010-10-23 09:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theelusiven, 2010-10-24 09:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2010-10-24 10:21 pm UTC

[info]xero_sky
2010-10-23 10:16 pm UTC (link)
RedHeart is one of the reasons I didn't take up knitting earlier. That stuff is everywhere, and I hate the way most of it feels in my hands.

I didn't realize this also makes me a snob. Bonus!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]chibikaijuu
2010-10-25 05:35 am UTC (link)
I honestly think this is what turns a lot of (often young) first-time knitters and crocheters off the craft - someone hands them a skein of RHSS and has them knit a hideous wobbly garter-stitch scarf in an awful color. I don't understand why people don't just teach both knit and purl right off the bat - when I finally learned to knit I was taught both and was happily messing around with ribbing by the end of the day - it felt like I'd actually accomplished something (and also I think garter stitch is pretty much hideous).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2010-10-25 05:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-10-25 06:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]attilathebun, 2010-10-25 08:21 pm UTC

[info]snarkhunter
2010-10-25 12:49 pm UTC (link)
I agree. It's so...cheap-feeling.

And I use cheap yarns all. the. time. Just not that shit.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]perletwo, 2010-10-27 01:47 am UTC

[info]txvoodoo
2010-10-23 10:44 pm UTC (link)
Hee!

I use RHSS for things for my dogs, since they'll basically ruin it eventually anyway. BUT, I dislike working with it, as it makes my hands hurt.

Much prefer soft cottons!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]risha
2010-10-23 11:39 pm UTC (link)
That's my problem with it too! I never thought I cared much about yarn quality, until I tried out knitting and ended up with it in my hands for hours on end. Acrylics hurt, and RH is the worst of those. (Not a yarn snob, for the record - I'm just saying that it hurts my hands, not that people shouldn't use it if theirs are fine with it. Who the hell has the money for $50 yarn to use on minor projects, if they don't have to?)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]txvoodoo, 2010-10-24 12:00 am UTC

[info]eleutheria
2010-10-24 10:05 pm UTC (link)
Where does Lion brand fall on this continuum? My only handknitted object is a shawl made by a friend from Lion brand Homespun, because I'm allergic to wool. She let me pick the yarn, and that was really pretty.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kookaburra
2010-10-24 10:17 pm UTC (link)
Lion Brand is another staple yarn, they are often found in big box stores and large chain craft stores too, but have a wider range of products - I haven't used them much so I can't say much about the quality, but I did make a scarf out of Lion Brand Wool-Ease, and it was very nice for the price - fuzzier than I usually prefer to work with, but workable, and my scarf is nice and warm and machine washable. They have some 100% wool/other natural fiber yarns along with a wide range of synthetics. However, just recently (apparently) they moved their manufacturing overseas and I've been hearing some rumbling about their quality taking a nosedive. :(

On the continuum, I'd say Lion Brand is at the upper end of the budget/economy part of the yarn spectrum, going purely by price.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]seasleepy
2010-10-25 04:12 pm UTC (link)
A bunch of people haaaaaate Homespun, because a) it's bad to learn on (and tends to be in stores where beginning knitters would be buying yarn) because it's so fuzzy (you can't see what you're doing), it's easy to accidentally split, and it's really hard to knit if you knit it tightly (as new knitters often do), b) it's acrylic, fuzzy soft acrylic, but still acrylic, c) it tends to worm (bits of the yarn slide around in the knitted item so you have little loose patches and then little tight patches), and d) a lot of people try to make things out of Homespun that should not be made out of Homespun. On the other hand, their colorways are generally pretty, it is pretty soft, a lot of people don't have problems working with it, and if you pick the right project, it will look just fine.

People also haaaaaate Fun Fur (feels horrible, instantly makes anything look like a skinned Muppet).

Lion Brand also gets some blanket disapproval because you can often get better yarns for similar prices from actual yarn companies/stores. On the other hand, you can't get those better yarns at your local Craft Barn or SuperMart, so they do also make decent yarn available if you need it immediately, or for those that can't/won't order yarn online, or for areas without a yarn shop.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seasleepy, 2010-10-25 04:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2010-10-26 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-10-25 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kelmendi, 2010-10-31 01:08 pm UTC

[info]snarkhunter
2010-10-25 12:47 pm UTC (link)
It's a kind of weird snobbery--like scorning anyone who ever buys a garment new or something.

Also, I'm cheap, fairly poor, and a crocheter, and I buy all my yarn at places like Jo-Ann and Michael's and AC Moore, and even *I* don't use Red Heart. Hmph.

(Walmart actually has a fairly wide yarn selection.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kookaburra
2010-10-25 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, there's sooooo many better acrylics out there for comparable prices. Caron is my go-to acrylic brand, especially Simply Soft. I just finished an afghan in it, actually.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]chibikaijuu
2010-10-25 06:28 pm UTC (link)
I really dislike acrylic in general (I find it uncomfortable, it doesn't breathe well, I hate the little plastic filament fuzzies, and there never seems to be any nice depth or sheen to it) but I've handled (though never worked with) some Caron and Bernat that's pretty touchable. It does have the advantage of being, well, plastic, and washable and dryable, and you don't have to worry about dye lots so much.

It's like buying the cheapest possible yarn is a source of pride for some people. I can kind of understand it as a backlash against classism in perceived yarn snobbery, but it goes way beyond that for some people.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]perletwo, 2010-10-27 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-10-27 05:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tephra, 2010-10-27 02:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-10-27 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tephra, 2010-10-27 05:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-10-27 07:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tephra, 2010-10-27 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kookaburra, 2010-10-27 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tephra, 2010-10-27 08:48 pm UTC

[info]tachikoma01
2010-10-27 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Wow, so knitting is EXACTLY LIKE the Asian Ball Joint Doll fandom, complete with a cult of nice and the loudest wankers being the ones complaining about how they're OMG PERSECUTED for having cheap dolls.

(Four or five years ago, the people with the high-priced dolls wanking about those OMG CHEAP KOREAN dolls was the wank du jour. Not anymore.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kookaburra
2010-10-27 07:36 pm UTC (link)
It's the same way in the knitting vs. crocheting wars. Now, I consider myself mainly a crocheter, so it's not pro-knitting bias saying this, but in any thread where someone talks about being insulted for being a crocheter and not a knitter, 5% of responses will be from knitters saying how horrible that is, we're all yarnies together, and then 95% will be other crocheters talking about how the whole craft world is against them, pulling stats and anecdata out of their collective arses to make knitting vs. crocheting a matter of class warfare and racism.

I swear to Hera I am not making that up.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2010-10-29 01:11 am UTC

[info]yhallothar
2010-10-23 11:47 pm UTC (link)
I use RH but I totally agree with you on Caron or Bernat. RH is only awesome AFTER you knit/crochet with it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]coffeebun
2010-10-24 02:45 pm UTC (link)
LOL, RH is like, one of the two brands of acrylic yarns available in my country, so that's what I use. Then I found a bunch of cheap acrylic yarns from Japan and while it is slightly more expensive, it is ooooh so amazingly different and soft.

/cool story bro

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]chibikaijuu
2010-10-25 04:17 am UTC (link)
I have to admit that I do not fucking understand why one would go to the trouble of knitting a nice piece and make it out of RH. When I knit, yes, I'm doing it for the fun of knitting, but I'm also doing it so that I can have something I wouldn't be able to buy pre-made. I usually end up aiming for higher quality for price than I could get in a store, which means I may end up paying a little more but ending up with something much better (I can just barely afford to knit a complicated cabled/lacework sweater out of a nice, high-quality animal fiber - I would pay less for a similar mass-produced sweater, but the fiber quality would be worse and the pattern far less interesting and unique, and I wouldn't have nearly the control over the color). Often, though, even with pricier (but not God's magical pubic hairs pricey) yarns, the end result is still that I save money and get something nicer. (I know a lot of people can't use animal fibers, but there are lots of very nice plant-based natural and synthetic fibers that, you know, aren't RHSS.)

That and RH and its ilk give me flashbacks to the toilet-roll-cover doll in my grandmother's guest bathroom.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kookaburra
2010-10-25 04:38 am UTC (link)
That's my philosophy too - I always have to sit on my hands when someone says oh, but it's good for big pieces like afghans, or something. I LOVE making afghans, and since I'm going to be spending LOTS of time making one, I want to get the best fiber I can afford for it. (My max price right now is about $10/200 yds, but there's plenty of nice, natural fiber yarn in that range.)

Oh and don't even get me started about the anti-nice-yarn sentiment among crocheters...(I'm mainly a crocheter, it drives me bonkers.)

It's also funny when I get people saying I just don't KNOW HOW IT IS because I'm selling plasma and going to the food bank to get by right now. Sure, I have to look for sales and plan my projects more carefully, but I still get to knit and crochet with nice yarn. (And I do have a small stash of acrylic, mostly Caron Simply Soft.) :)

I have to admit though, if I could afford qivut or vicuna I would be allllll over that shit. IDG why people say those fibers are overpriced - if I had to get fiber from the underbelly of a muskox, I would charge WAY more than $90/skein.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]chibikaijuu
2010-10-25 06:09 am UTC (link)
Oh, heh, I have an afghan that my grandmother crocheted for me when I was little, out of RH (or something very like it, anyway), and while it's quite pretty (she used an off-white, with a blue-to-lavender variegated edging) and I appreciate all the work that went into it, I never let it touch my skin - it only ever goes on top of the other blankets for looks/warmth. I don't use it as a throw or wrap ever, because it feels so awful (and that's after at least 20 years of consistent use and plenty of washes). I can't imagine handling the yarn long enough to actually make the afghan. Cheap acrylics may be cheap, but there are plenty of other fibers that are inexpensive and handle much more nicely (and you can always do a very open and airy pattern or use bulky yarn and big needles/hooks).
When people ardently defend their use of RH and such, it always feels like they're somehow proud of being "anti-snobs" to the point of acting just as superior as they claim "yarn snobs" do. I don't care what you knit with, as long as whomever you're knitting for is happy with it. But if you ask my opinion, I'll suggest you use something, anything else.

(And yeah, the super-expensive fibers that are expensive because they're rare and hard to harvest? I can't afford them, but they're not really overpriced. Muskoxen are fucking HUGE.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sunhawk
2010-10-29 04:44 pm UTC (link)
I don't make clothing but I do crochet animals and plants. I often use it because it's the brand of a particular colour I am looking for and it comes in skeins large enough to need fewer to get a project done. I'd love to use the $22 per 90 yard stuff but it's really out of my budget if I want to sell my final product for under $100, which is what the market seems to allow for plush animals below a certain size. So I go with the $5.99 per 160 yard RH Buttercup and then I can afford to price things so that people actually buy them. I don't use SS because it's not bulky enough for what I'm doing.

I think RH makes some interesting yarns that I think feel nice and soft, like Buttercup (which I often call "baby duck") and Light & Lofty.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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