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Hexnut ([info]tunxeh) wrote in [info]otf_wank,
@ 2010-12-04 15:54:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:academia

#AAAFail
War between anthropology-as-science and anthropology-as-literary-theory continues, news at 11.

The short version: Anthropology has long been split between people who consider themselves scientists (they are using falsifiable hypotheses and empirical data to learn facts about how people behave) and people who feel that postmodern literary theory is a better way to approach the subject in a way that is conscious of one's own cultural biases. The scientists call the literary theorists "fluff-heads" while the literary theorists call the scientists as shallow as pro wrestlers. The American Anthropological Association (generally considered to be on the anthropology-as-literary-theory side of the fence, but still playing an important role in the rest of anthropology as the host of the annual academic-job-seeking process) recently amended their mission statement in the anti-science direction. Or rather, they wrote a new "long-range plan" that differs from their previous mission statement in the important sense that it can be approved by the executive committee without an actual vote of the membership.

As some Iain M. Banks fan writes: "I thought it was pretty telling that the AAA's move was not to make the statement more inclusive or add language clarifying that nonscientific inquiry was also valued. It was just to delete science."

There's a lot of self-important posturing and other forms of wanking on all sides, on the blogs and (of course) on twitter. This post has quite a few more good links.

Disclaimer: anthropology was my worst subject in college, and I haven't paid much attention to it since. I know which side of this debate I'd stand on, but I'm woefully underinformed.



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[info]sgaana
2010-12-05 03:21 am UTC (link)
I'm an English major myself, but if I'd been smarter going into school, I'd be an anthropologist studying folklore. OMG, I wish I were smarter when I started school. I would love to be an expert on some bit of folklore that no layperson would ever think of as "folklore" (because it's not a fairy tale, of course). Or, you know, what my dream job has been since high school: researching links between transmission of folk practices (music, stories, art, clothing design, food...) and exchange/evolution of language between different communities.

Instead, I studied English, because everyone told me I should...


*sigh* I wish you could act like a Ghost of Majors Past and visit a lot of the students who make a similar decision, not just because someone told them they "should" study English or whatever, but because the idea of their major having the word "folklore" or "mythology" in it sounds too flakey to them. When, in fact, it's about studying things that are deeply important to people, the exchanges through which people create culture with each other, and it's pretty much just as useful to generic-your future career as that English degree, if not moreso.

Every damned year, my program goes through the same process of getting very few declared majors, and, it seems like, a whole lot of other people who expressed real interest in us, but who don't do it... and yet who really wind up doing work in whatever major they're in that they really should have been doing with us.

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[info]keri
2010-12-05 03:34 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I really regret being 19 and stupid. :(

When I went off to university, I decided to major in linguistics, because I didn't realize that you could specialize in folklore, or exactly how broad the field is (I knew it was more than just stories, but only a vague idea of the definition). And then the college I went to was a hippy art school and no linguistics...but they did have Classics, and studying Greek and Latin and junk appealed to me. But I quit that school, came home, and the new uni didn't have Classics or linguistics, the anthro program seemed to be focused on archaeology and I didn't want to do that, and I wondered if maybe I shouldn't just do English since it'd maybe let me play with language and stories. That and everyone said "you read so much, you write so well, you should major in English!"

I was very seriously considering going to grad school for folklore, but I didn't see a very promising career path, except academics, with a master's in the field, and I don't want to be an academic. So I'm about to fail out of library school instead! (I'm not capable of online programs, it seems.) (Also, I was going to do a concentration in archives, because my second dream job is working in a historical archive/museum.)

Poor, poor, silly me. I am perpetually suck at making the right choices for the future.

(I also wish I could go back and get a new undergraduate degree, but that just seems like it's so unfeasible, with the money needed, and having to move to a city with a school that actually has the program. Plus, I've been at university for 8 years, I'm ready for a break.)

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[info]mad_teacup
2010-12-05 05:15 am UTC (link)
Are you me?

Because seriously I know exactly what you mean.

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[info]evilsqueakers
2010-12-05 05:16 am UTC (link)
If it helps, I'm trying to get into vet tech school...after pissing around for a decade, and only managing to get a AS in Psych JUST so I'd have a degree after this long. I figured out pretty early that I didn't like people enough to actually want to help them and being a middle aged teen therapist is just redundant.

I decidedly don't feel 29 because of the wrong degree and people telling me to change so often.

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[info]chaos_theory
2010-12-05 05:31 am UTC (link)
Anthropology is not one of those things that if you didn't do it as an undergraduate, you're sunk. My BA is in English, and I'm working on my phd in Anthro now. There's actually a lot of overlaps between English and anthro and many graduate programs like having students with diverse backgrounds. In the programs I've been in, we have had people with degrees in classics, history, journalism, biology, english, art, pre-law, pre-med, etc.

There are, however, very very few jobs outside of academia (and even then very few), and you'll need more than a Masters. they'll also generally be poorly paid and the degree will take you years and years.

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[info]sgaana
2010-12-05 11:40 pm UTC (link)
I would say that even if you were considering getting a folklore masters, there are plenty of things to do with it rather than academia. (I would tend to agree that, why spend all that time and money getting a phd if you're not wanting to be in academia. Although... well... I do know any number of people who have phds in various humanities disciplines, but who gave up on trying to get one of the rare jobs in academia, and they have found that even though their phd is not in something that is related to what they are doing now -- such as an English doctorate when they are working in high-level computer support -- just *having* a doctoral degree means that they will be paid more than someone without one, and they can apply for some non-academic jobs that still look favorably on those who have phds, of any kind.)

Getting back to the idea of a folklore degree... I can only speak to the experience of our program's undergrads, with their bachelors degrees in folklore, but... they find they can turn that into a lot of different careers, and I somehow think that would be the same thing for a masters degree. Aside from the ones who go on to law or med school, a large number of our graduates go on to become writers, journalists, filmmakers, advertisers, and educators. Since folklore is the study of shared culture, of storytelling, and of what's important to people on an almost "hidden" cultural level (i.e. the body of folklore of a culture is often -- esp. in the U.S. -- not accorded the same respect as "of cultural importance" as the more obvious categories of religion, "high" art, literature, and so on. But people are deeply attached to their culture's folklore, and once you learn to identify it and study it, you have a key to ways they create community and define themselves to each other, and to what pushes their buttons. So you can imagine how that might come in handy to an advertiser, say, or any kind of writer.

Sorry to witter on! But, also don't give up thinking that it's "too late" in your life to start something new. Although, I hear you that the biggest problem is the economic burden. Being older, or even having tried other career paths, doesn't mean you can't up and figure out another one later. The key is figuring out how to make it possible in your life to do that.

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[info]melannen
2010-12-05 04:45 am UTC (link)
Okay, where are you, and do you have a graduate program?

Because I have been thinking seriously about going back to study folklore, if I could find a place with a Master's program that seemed like it would work for me, but there are so *few* of them...

(I would have done anthropology if I hadn't really disliked the anthro department at my school, so I ended up in geography instead, and don't really regret that, because it covered most of what I would've wanted out of anthro only organized differently. But folklore! o my love.)

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[info]sgaana
2010-12-05 11:48 pm UTC (link)
Alas, we do not have a graduate program; it's a weird quirk of our history as a program. (I'm at a Boston-area university.) What happens is that a number of graduate students in other departments often wind up essentially with specialties in folklore, but in their own depts. Our program itself is made up mostly of faculty with appointments in other depts -- like Anthro, Religion, English, German, Celtic, etc. -- whose own specialties are really folkloric in nature, so the courses they teach count for our program.

Indiana University and the Univ. of Missouri have two of the best Folklore graduate programs in the U.S. A number of other places have graduate programs that can specialize in folkloric studies, within other disciplines. This page is a good place to survey them:

http://www.loc.gov/folklife/source/list_highered.php

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[info]melannen
2010-12-06 05:15 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I've been through most of that list. Alas, except for Indiana and Missouri, they seem to be either really interdisciplinary programs, where I'd have to more-or less patch my own curriculum together out of different departments - which I'm fairly sure would not work for me at all, I need a firm path to follow (which may just mean I'm not ready for grad school at all, dunno) - or they focus tightly on an area I'm not interested in.

I've been looking at Indiana but I suspect I have zero chance of getting in. I'm also considering just going for history or maybe archeology with a concentration on folk traditions, because while folklore topics are what call to me, methodology-wise I'm much more interested in searching through archives and artifacts than having to talk to actual people in person, brrr.

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[info]cmikhailovic
2010-12-06 03:08 pm UTC (link)
Ohio State is actually a more stable program, and is inching into the top spot: I have friends among Indiana grad students, and they all sing the praises of OSU. Another thing: more money, so if you get in you'll be supported. The cool thing about OSU is that you can go through English (which I did) or Comparative Studies; both are good, it just depends on what you want to focus on.

/folklore MA from OSU, I'm biased.

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[info]sistercoyote
2010-12-05 10:22 pm UTC (link)
So, wait.

I could get my degree in Pop Culture but call it anthropology? Studying television and film as the common stories we tell each other?

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[info]sgaana
2010-12-05 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Well, more like, studying the way film and television becomes a *part* of the common stories we tell each other -- yes, they're commercial in origin (although they are all still "storytelling"), but where they really intersect folklore, I think, is the way that the audience takes them and they become a part of the way we relate to each other. (Which, if you notice, is not a million miles away from the concept of what we're doing with fanfic, either. But there's a difference between the way fic writers take the commonly-held properties, which are valuable because of their familiarity, and use elements of them to tell new stories; and the way, for example, you can argue that part of a shared culture is as much the ability to make offhand references or jokes to "Gilligan's Island" and have them be understood, as it is the ability to do that with what people would think of as the more classic folkloric canon, like Little Red Riding Hood.) (We've had some of our students do theses going both ways -- a recent grad looked at "Let the Right One In", while a past grad did work on the manifestations of LRRH in popular culture, from cartoons to advertising; which she turned into a published book.)

We'd call that "folklore", but I think at some point, the line between "folklore" and "social anthropology" is so fine as to be unimportant. At some institutions, you'd get your degree in Anthro, in some, in "Cultural Studies", and at a few remaining places, in "Folklore". (Folklore is, I suppose, a subset of Anthro in that it's looking at specifics kinds of cultural interactions; then again, "folkloristics" as a discipline has a pretty venerable history, and as we tend to explain it to people, it's more of a combination of the disciplines of the social sciences and the humanities. Where I am, Anthro is defined as a social science. Even the "soft" parts, as opposed to the more sciency parts.)

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[info]cmikhailovic
2010-12-06 03:10 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, folklore has at various points also been a subdiscipline of literature, and also a discipline in its own right. So much is bound up with the cultures at individual institutions.

(I'm a folklorist, and history of the discipline is one of my interests.)

(Also, I AM THRILLED TO BITS that there are other folklore junkies here!)

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[info]sistercoyote
2010-12-06 06:26 pm UTC (link)
where they really intersect folklore, I think, is the way that the audience takes them and they become a part of the way we relate to each other.

Yes, this is pretty much what I meant; I recall getting stuck in a boat at the bottom of Pirates of the Caribbean at Disneyland (long story) and someone in the boat behind us started singing the "Gilligan's Island" theme song. Which everyone -- even the non-Americans -- recognized and could at least hum along with. Was kind of amusing, actually.

TV shows and very popular movies become sort of a cultural "taken-for-granted", I think, much as the old oral traditions did, and I think that's kind of how I see fanfic and I suspect it could be argued (though not by me!) that some of the "Old Tales" are also a sort of fanfic; new stories about well-known characters.

I must start researching programs. Not that I can afford to go back to school right now. However, this is all definitely relevant to my interests.

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[info]chibikaijuu
2010-12-07 09:31 pm UTC (link)
a past grad did work on the manifestations of LRRH in popular culture, from cartoons to advertising; which she turned into a published book.

I think I've read that book. I may or may not have thought it was awful, depending on which one it was.

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[info]cmikhailovic
2010-12-06 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Depends where you go: some places (i.e., Bowling Green) have specific Pop Culture programs.

Generally, though, I, as a folklorist, put pop culture under the cultural studies rubric: tv shows, etc., are official products from formal institutionalized spaces (major entertainment corporations). Fan communities that spring up around pop culture texts have elements of folklore.

Of course, this is a lot of hair splitting -- cult studs is a hybrid discipline, and one of its parents is folklore; a certain amount depends on how "close to the ground" you are theoretically and methodologically, as the Center for Folklore Studies at OSU puts it. Lots of folklorists who work with genres like fairy tales -- which are simultaneously literary, folk, and later media narratives -- wind up doing combined folklore/cultural studies work.

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[info]sistercoyote
2010-12-06 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Cool; wish I could afford a degree from BG.

which are simultaneously literary, folk, and later media narratives
Walt Disney was a fanfic writer. ;)

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[info]evilsqueakers
2010-12-07 12:19 am UTC (link)
Walt Disney was a fanfic writer. ;)

Better than Anne Rice.

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[info]sistercoyote
2010-12-07 12:30 am UTC (link)
This is very, very true.

Also, however, not that difficult.

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[info]evilsqueakers
2010-12-07 12:32 am UTC (link)
Well, you know, as long as Beauty isn't wearing a ball gag, it's a wide margin of error.

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[info]snarkhunter
2010-12-08 02:42 pm UTC (link)
You can also study television and film as literature--the Cultural Studies aspect of English-majoring.

Just saying. Folklore studies belongs to both English and Anthro.

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